Episode Summary
This week, we're doing another anniversary episode, and this time we're celebrating the anniversary of Kelis' debut album, Kaleidoscope. With her colorful hair and punk attitude, she literally burst onto the scene screaming "I hate you so much right now!" backed by the sounds of Chad Hugo & Pharrell Williams, aka The Neptunes. We get into how this album is a mix of several genres rather than just straight R&B. With its collage of electronic, funk, hip hop and rock influences, Kelis and The Neptunes gave us an album with a sound that we hadn't really heard before, and it kicked off a production style that continues to this day.
Transcript
Miguel: Welcome back to They Reminisce Over You, I'm Miguel.
Christina: And I'm Christina. And today we're going to talk about an album and an artist that I've been wanting to talk about for a little while.
Miguel: Yes you have.
Christina: This is one of my favorite albums. It's by Kelis and it's her debut album Kaleidoscope, which is another anniversary episode that we're doing. This is 25 years.
Miguel: 25 years.
Christina: Which is also pretty long.
Miguel: It is.
Christina: Like this album is an adult.
Miguel: It is.
Christina: Every time we do these anniversary episodes, I—I’m like, it just doesn't like, 25 feels like 15, you know, 20 feels like 10. Like it just doesn't feel that long.
Miguel: Hey, it is what it is.
Christina: But it is the 25th anniversary of Kaleidoscope. So this album was released in December of 1999, and I think it was totally appropriate because we were on the cusp of this whole new millennium, Y2K frenzy, if you weren't there, it was real. People were really scared that once we switched to 2000 that the computers would think it was 1900. And this was like a real thing. So it seemed appropriate timing for us to get this like futuristic album. So, shall we just get into it?
Miguel: I think we should.
Christina: All right.
Miguel: Let's do it. I can't even…
Christina: You trying to be like me?
Miguel: I am. It didn't work.
Christina: Let's do it.
Miguel: Alright, so in ’99, there was a lot going on in the musical landscape.
Christina: There was. I just looked up, like, R&B and hip hop albums that came out in 1999. I was like, damn, we were spoiled.
Miguel: Yeah. Usher had the My Way album. Brandy had Never Say Never. TLC released Fan Mail. 100 percent Ginuwine. And it was all different. Like, even Whitney Houston had Your Love Is My Love out. So there was a lot of styles happening in R&B at this time.
Christina: Yes.
Miguel: And it was evolving fast.
Christina: Oh, Destiny's Child.
Miguel: Destiny's Child had their album out. And like I said, the styles were evolving really fast. Because in our last episode, we talked about Mary J. Blige and the transition from New Jack Swing to this hip hop influenced R&B. This was just four or five years before that. And now we're talking about the sounds of Timbaland and the Neptunes. So things were changing and changing fast.
Christina: Yes. Even though there were a lot of albums that came out, and as you were saying, things were changing and stuff, when this album came out, it still managed to sound different from everything else.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: When I was, uh, just reading up on it, I didn't realize that on the sales side and charting side, it actually didn't do very well.
Miguel: I'm not surprised at that.
Christina: I was because I just feel like "Caught Out There" was pretty big and it felt like a crossover hit. So I was actually surprised that it was, in terms of charting and sales, it was kind of like meh.
Miguel: Yeah. Uh, the reason behind that, at least in my opinion, is this is the first album that the Neptunes had done. Like, we knew them for “Super Thug” and “Oh No,” and there was one other song I can't remember, temember it off the top of my head. But they weren't really well known at this point either. This is the album that actually broke them and everything they went on to do after this is what sold and was on the charts. But this is where it all started.
Christina: Because I feel like when she came out, you know, she's got this like multicolored hair. She's screaming, “I hate you so much right now!” And the sound was still fairly new because again, as you're saying, they'd only done a couple songs before that. I guess it, maybe I remembered it so well that I guess maybe I remembered it being bigger than what it was, right? But she really like, you know, when you say burst onto the scene?
Miguel: Yeah
Christina: She really did.
Miguel: Like you said, she's got this curly hair and depending on when you saw her, it could have been any color.
Christina: Or multiple colors at the same time.
Miguel: Multiple colors. She's tall. She's got this Punk rock energy about her and her voice ain't like really pretty either. It’s raspy and scratchy.
Christina: It is pretty but it's raspy at the same time but then she has this little like pretty little face to go with that voice and the energy.
Miguel: So it's a lot going on, and like you said, it seemed like it was bigger than it was. And I felt that she should be bigger than she is.
Christina: Right. I described her as fun, but also not to be fucked with.
Miguel: Yeah. And you get that from the intro, where, Pharrell's telling the story about how they found her on some random pink planet and he's got the little skits of her playing on the playground but she's chasing boys talking about “I’m gonna get you” and stuff like that and the boys are scared of her. And “I hate you!” Sidebar, the fact that "Caught Out There" doesn't follow the intro bothers me because she's basically setting the scene for who she is, and she actually says, “I hate you” to this little boy on the playground. But then they open it with “Good Stuff.” Makes no sense to me.
Christina: Doesn't bother me too much. I mean, I see what you're saying, but—
Miguel: Because also the little melody that's playing, it sounds like a music box, is the same melody from "Caught Out There." So it's right there for it to be the first song on the album.
Christina: True, true.
Miguel: But I digress.
Christina: Well, “Good Stuff” is a good opener too, though.
Miguel: It was.
Christina: “I’m telling you, boy, good stuff's right here.”
Miguel: With an appearance from a rapper named Terrar.
Christina: AKA, Pusha T.
Miguel: Now known as Pusha T. Yeah, but “Good Stuff” is a good song.
Christina: It is.
Miguel: I'm not going to say it's a bad song. I just wish that it was song number two rather than the opener.
Christina: This album is another one, we had said this about My Life, but this is even more so where it was critically acclaimed, but the, like I was saying, the charts and the sales just didn't reflect it. But pretty much everybody seemed to have loved this album though.
Miguel: Right.
Christina: So, it's always a question of like, why does this happen?
Miguel: I really can't explain it. I think, like I mentioned earlier, it's just due to The Neptunes not having the name that they did after the album came out. Like if the Clipse’s album was able to get out and wasn't shelved then probably this would have been like the one that blew them up. But this ended up being the one that put them on the scene rather than the clips album if that makes sense
Christina: Yeah, I was also reading some stuff about it and her album did better in the UK.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: As does often a lot of albums that don't fit neatly into what you expect from R&B slash Black music. Quote unquote Black music. Because she's even—you know, she's said herself in various interviews that she never thought of herself as like strictly R&B, and like, she didn't really fit neatly into these categories, and so maybe that was part of it too? It's just like, where do we put her?
Miguel: Yeah, because you look at Chad and Pharrell and the songs that they had done before this. Uh, just looking at my notes here. So it was “Super Thug” and “Oh No” by Noreaga and “Got Your Money” was the other one.
Christina: Yes.
Miguel: And she's on that. So that's what they were known for before the album come out. So you look at those three songs. You see her, Black girl, obviously she's got to be doing R&B. But then you get the album and it's very eclectic. It's all over the place.
Christina: It's eclectic. They're singing about like spaceships and Mars and stuff. And again, like, I think it could mostly categorize it as R&B, but it isn't strictly R&B.
Miguel: Yeah. Cause I looked at it and I wrote this down in my notes. You can look at this album as the sizzle reel for The Neptunes. Like, look at all the shit that we can do.
Christina: That's why the album was appropriately named Kaleidoscope.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: Because it's bright, it's colorful, it's a little bit chaotic, it changes all the time. Like, I think that is a good explanation or description of this album and even just her. Like her, her look, her style, all of that.
Miguel: Because it's a complete mix of all those different genres and it worked.
Christina: I'm trying to think if I found it weird at the time, and I don't think I did. And I think maybe we were…spoiled because we had so much, like, even within the genre of R&B and hip hop, we had so many different types of artists that it was just like, oh, well, this one, this artist is doing this.
Miguel: Yeah. And like I mentioned earlier, you had Timbaland and the sound that he was creating for Aaliyah and Ginuwine and Missy. So that was different.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: What Rodney Jerkins was doing with Brandy and Michael Jackson, that was different. So it, it was available for us to hear different sounds and different styles. But this was still a little off as well. Because at least with those, they were still doing what we consider to be R&B, whereas this was all over the place.
Christina: Yeah, it had kind of like an alternative thing about her. And again, I think sort of the, um, the spaceship stuff also kind of put it into another realm. And, um, I saw her saying something about how like, you know, Black radio stations were telling her she wasn't Black enough. And she's like, just because I'm yelling, I'm not Black enough?
Um, yeah, which is kind of just seems weird. Whenever you kind of see these like not Black enough discussions It just never really makes sense because you just look at her and you're like, how is she not Black enough?
Miguel: Yeah and it usually comes from people who are fans of rock music or pop music or this and that and Black people started that too. So it really makes no sense to say that she can't be Black enough because she's doing rock but Black people started rock music.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: So, those criticisms really don't make sense either.
Christina: And I think also because, I mean, she wasn't, as we were saying, she kind of didn't fit neatly into the R&B that was out at the time, too. And even just like, her speaking voice, too, when she would talk in the skit, she's like, “Yeah, give me two of those. Oh, I could have the pink one.” Even that was just like, okay, she's, she's different.
Miguel: Yeah, exactly.
Christina: But I remember liking her from the beginning. And as I said in the intro, this is one of my favorite albums.
Miguel: Yeah, I was weirded out by it at first, but I liked it. Because it's like, why is she yelling?
Christina: Aaahhh!
Miguel: Yeah, but the production on it fit what she was doing. So it made sense. It wasn't weird, even though I didn't know much about The Neptunes at the time, had no idea who she was at the time.
Christina: You and Nas, “them cats are weird.”
Miguel: Right. So you listen to it. It's like, you know what? This is strange, but I like it for whatever reason. I don't know what's drawing me to this, but I like it.
Christina: I don't remember exactly how I felt about it, but I feel like I've liked it from the beginning. And "Caught Out There" is actually not a song that I like the most on the album. Okay. Like, there are many other songs that I would choose over "Caught Out There." But I think sometimes when I've mentioned this before about other songs. Sometimes the lead single just kind of, you just hear it all the time. So when there are other good songs on the album, you just kind of like, yeah, I don't need to hear this one as much.
Miguel: The reason I like it is because it kind of solidified the sound of The Neptunes. And from this album, moving forward, you can see like everything they did after this, it was kind of rooted in this album. Like you listen to Beanie Man, the song with him and Mya. Ray J of all people, with “Wait a Minute.” Babyface even got him with “There She Goes,” the Britney Spears, “I’m a Slave 4 U.” You listen to those, and it sounds like this.
Christina: It's too bad her and The Neptunes fell out because there are some artists that And producers that just sound like they were made for each other.
Miguel: And that's them.
Christina: And it's not to say that she can't be anything without them. Because she's proven that she can because she has a bunch of other songs that I like with other producers. But there is something special about this pairing.
Miguel: Yeah, it's just like Missy and Timbaland. Need to be together. Dre and Snoop need to be together. Kelis and The Neptunes need to be together.
Christina: But it ain't gonna happen.
Miguel: It's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen. And we're at the point now where Chad and Pharrell ain't even speaking, so…
Christina: Right, so, there might not, or there isn't much of Neptunes anymore?
Miguel: Yeah, The Neptunes are dead. The Kelis-Neptunes relationship has been dead for 20 years. I'm not gonna say never, but chances are we're not gonna get a reunion from them, sadly.
Christina: At least we got Kaleidoscope.
Miguel: We did. We got Kaleidoscope. We got the second album, which wasn't released in the US for whatever reason until like three or four years ago.
Christina: Oh, it was like a whole bunch of label issues and stuff. I read something about it.
Miguel: And they worked on the third album, but after that, it's, it's been dead between then.
Christina: Because even on the third album, Tasty, um, that's when she started working with other producers too, just to, I guess, spread her wings.
Miguel: Yeah. And according to her, that's what led to the falling out, is her working with outside producers.
Christina: Mm hmm. I see.
Miguel: Yeah. So a lot of personal feelings got in the way.
Christina: Right. Okay.
Miguel: And that's why they haven't worked together since.
Christina: Interesting.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: Yeah. Cause, uh, I know we're supposed to talk about Kaleidoscope, but since we're talking about the third album, like some of my favorite songs off of that is songs that she did, um, she did one with Dallas Austin, the, uh, what's it called? I think it was the lead single. I forgot. And then there's a Raphael Saadiq song too that's really good. So yeah. So back to Kaleidoscope.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: I think, um, even though it's not like they were a group, this was kind of almost like a debut album for.
Miguel: For all of them.
Christina: Yeah, technically it's hers, but she introduced them to the public too.
Miguel: Yeah, it was. Because like I said those songs that I listed earlier came out after this, and this is what kind of solidified that Neptunes sound what we know as The Neptunes. And after this album, it got to the point where if you didn't have a Neptune's track, then you were trying to get someone that sounds like The Neptunes and this album showcased everything that they could do. It's got a range of styles, like we mentioned, "Caught Out There" doesn't sound like “In the Morning,” which doesn't sound like “Suspended,” which is very jazzy—
Christina: Which doesn’t sound like “Game Show.”
Miguel: Doesn't sound like “Game Show.” So this showcase, everything that all three of them could do.
Christina: So this is their demo tape?
Miguel: Basically. Like I said, this is The Neptunes sizzle reel and they used Kelis to showcase it.
Christina: I was also thinking about how, you know, after this and they got really hot. And it kind of shows that sometimes when you blow up and you know, everyone's clamoring for you, you start working with people that maybe doesn't fit the sound. And not every Neptunes beat is equal.
Miguel: Like Babyface. “There She Goes.”
Christina: This album, as we both keep saying, like, this is a Kelis album, but maybe this is why she's so upset about this relationship, because she didn't make no money off this album.
Miguel: She didn't make any money off of it.
Christina: Yet this is basically, there's, like, if you want to hear good Neptunes beats, it's this album.
Miguel: Yeah, like, she legitimately has reasons to be upset.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: Like, she was there from the beginning and got squeezed out, basically. And one of the more recent interviews[1] that she's done, she said it was framed to her as the three of them, they're splitting everything equally, 33 percent and it didn't happen.
Christina: Yeah. And she got 0%.
Miguel: She got no money. She gets no credit for, like, their jumping off point. I'd be pissed off too.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: But that's just me.
Christina: Because, actually you, you started to say it and then I rudely cut you off. The song “Suspended” is a little jazzy.
Miguel: It is.
Christina: Which people have done before. Okay. But it's also like what jazz music would sound like in space
Miguel: Right.
Christina: And it works because of her voice. Like you can say their production and stuff too. But her voice also makes it the way she like glides over the beats with her voice.
Miguel: Yeah, it's definite, a definite partnership between The Neptunes and Kelis. One doesn't work without the other.
Christina: Yeah like, yes, they could do stuff outside of each other, but the stuff they did together is very specific to this partnership. Or this fake partnership.
Miguel: Right. I'm going to say it was a partnership at one point.
Christina: When they were creating it.
Miguel: Yeah. But what happened over the years, it became less of a partnership.
Christina: Right. So I think what came out of this was very special for the fans. And even if she's not making any money off of it, I hope she still at least feels good about what she made.
Miguel: I hope so.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: With that said, do you think this album still holds up in 2024?
Christina: Definitely. And I don't think this is just my old head, nostalgic opinion. Like I think that because the sound at the time had already sounded futuristic and new that even now it doesn't sound dated.
Miguel: Yeah. I'm going to say half of it doesn't sound dated. The other half sounds very 1999, 2000.
Christina: All right. Which half?
Miguel: I can't come up with it off the top of my head, but I can tell you the songs that kind of still fit today. So "Caught Out There" sounds like something that would come out today and still work. “Mars” sounds like something that came out last year. Like people are making trap beats. And “Mars” is a trap record, but it wasn't called trap back then. So that tells you how ahead of their time they were with the production and the song itself. ‘Cause it sounds like it could come out today. Um, what else did I like on the, uh, “Good Stuff” again, that could hold up, but some of it's, like I said, sounds very 2000.
Christina: “I Want Your Love.” I think that one, now that…
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: But even if it sounds very 2000, I think—
Miguel: It doesn't sound bad.
Christina: It doesn't sound bad and I think it still holds up to today because there's also a lot of nostalgia for that time that a lot of these newer artists are starting to incorporate some of the ‘90s, early 2000 stuff back into the music today so I think that that also makes it hold up is because It's kind of coming back around.
Miguel: Yeah, there's a lot of stuff, like I said, that sounds current. The others sound very 2000. And it's not just The Neptunes. If you listen to, like, a lot of Rodney Jerkins stuff, a lot of Timbaland stuff, it sounds of that time. But there's a lot of stuff that could still hit today, too.
Christina: I found an interview that she did with The Fader about, um, the song “Mars” since you kept singing it.
Miguel: “Gonna send your Black ass to Mars.”
Christina: So she said that she was sitting in her apartment watching TV. And it was this show on about trying to colonize Mars. And she was like, that's crazy. And when they were sitting around talking about what do you want to write about? She said she want to write about that show. They're trying to colonize Mars. “I was a huge science fiction fan, always felt like they tried to write us out of the future. They're trying to send everybody White to Mars.” And there goes the song.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: And she says she used that song to open up her shows for years.
Miguel: That's funny. Yeah, cause in the lyrics she says I'm really high right now. Past the blunt, my popcorn is burning. What did they just say? They trying to send us to Mars? Like it's in the song. So yeah, that's my favorite one on this album because of that reason.
Christina: It's actually my, probably one of my lower favorite ones.
I don't listen to that one that much. ‘Cause when you kept singing that line, I was like, I don't even remember that.
Miguel: I did. And then when I listened to it the other day, it was like, Oh yeah, I completely forgot about this song. “Do you hear what they talking about? Trying to send your Black ass to Mars.” Yeah. I love that song.
Christina: A little conspiracy theory.
Miguel: Yeah, I'm with that. So what are your other favorite songs from this album?
Christina: Well, I really like all the up tempo songs, like “Good Stuff,” “No Turning Back,” et cetera, et cetera. But, I would say my favorite, favorite song is, it kind of goes back and forth between “In the Morning” and “Get Along With You.”
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: First I put “Get Along With You.” Then I put “In the Morning” and then I switched it and then I put it back. So I think “In the Morning” might squeak over “Get Along With You,” but they're pretty neck and neck. So I would say one of those two would be my favorite songs. I also really like “Suspended” because this, how did you make space music sound jazzy at the same time? And it's just, interesting. Like, it's very different. Um, there's also this song, the other one, “Mafia.”
Miguel: Yeah, I had that on my list. I like it, but, this Markita?
Christina: Yeeeeah…
Miguel: She sounds like Eve rapping like Foxy Brown. And that bothers me.
Christina: I, I didn't, um, I put in my notes, sorry to the rapper on the song but I could do without it. Sorry. But I think that's what's keeping me from putting “Mafia” a little higher.
Miguel: Yeah. When I was listening to it—
Christina: It’s not the worst, like I'll listen to it. I don't mind, but [whispers] I would like it without it.
Miguel: Like, yeah, when I was listening to it the other day, I was like, she sounds like Eve, but she's rapping like Foxy Brown. This does not work for me.
Christina: She reminds me of somebody. I can't put my finger on it, but I wasn't thinking Eve or Foxy Brown too, but I,
Miguel: I, I didn't need that, uh, or that rap on the song. Yeah. Like if we could take her off and just leave Kelis.
Christina: We got stems now.
Miguel: We do. I just may try it.
Christina: But “Mafia” is also another good example of how I say her voice glides over the beats. She just is like, [mimics singing] like water waves. It just works really well.
Miguel: Yeah, so I like that. I like “Get Along With You,” “Suspended,” like you said, but “Mars” is my favorite. That's my favorite song.
Christina: Alright. So neither of our favorites is “Caught Out There?”
Miguel: No, I like it, but it's not top five for me.
Christina: Uh, it might be top five if I put numbers to it, but it's not top two.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: Let’s put it that way.
Miguel: Yeah, I like it for what it is. Yeah. The introduction to Kelis. But I love other songs more.
Christina: I agree.
Miguel: That's all. All right. Is there anything else you would like to say about this album before we get out of here?
Christina: Um…
Miguel: Reflecting 25 years later.
Christina: I would say if you only know her as the “I hate you so much right now lady” or “the milkshake lady," then you need to go listen to Kaleidoscope in full.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: And if you know Kaleidoscope, But you kind of dropped off from there then you need to listen to Tasty in full and just hear her without the Neptunes.
Miguel: Right.
Christina: Or half without The Neptunes.
Miguel: Yeah, I think they only did like three songs on Tasty.
Christina: Yeah, so that's that's my parting words.
Miguel: Yeah, I have nothing else to say about the album other than this is the start for both of them. You can see where their careers started, both The Neptunes and Kelis, right here on Kaleidoscope Their careers went in completely different directions but yeah, it should have been more fruitful in my opinion.
Christina: Yeah
Miguel: Between Kelis and The Neptunes. I’ll just leave it at that.
Christina: Maybe we need to go and finally buy her barbecue sauce or whatever it is. We were she was selling…she's like a farmer these days. Yeah, one of the hats she's wearing is she's a farmer these days.
Miguel: Yeah, she does like spices and sauces.
Christina: Oh, she's a chef now, too.
Miguel: Yeah, she's a chef. She's doing a skincare line. She's into wellness, health and wellness is what Kelis is doing. She's still performing but her passion today is more culinary than musical.
Christina: I think we saw like some blueberry barbecue sauce.
Miguel: Something like that. It was a barbecue sauce. I remember that.
Christina: And uh, we keep saying we should buy it, we should buy it. And hasn't done it yet. Maybe it's time to get some Bounty and Full.
Miguel: Yes, and get a Christmas package or something. But yeah, that's all I got.
Christina: Alright.
Miguel: Listen to Kaleidoscope. It's a good album. It's one of my favorite albums.
Christina: Same.
Miguel: Even though half of it is very 2000. Listen to it for the other stuff.
Christina: Eh. It doesn't bother me. I'll let the whole album play still.
Miguel: Yeah, me too. I'll run it back and forth. But I'm not gonna listen to all of it two times in a row. Listen to it in full once and then—
Christina: Go back to the favs.
Miguel: Go back to my songs afterwards.
Christina: Yep yep.
Miguel: All right. So we've wrapped this episode up. Thank you again for listening to They Reminisce Over You. We try to do this every two weeks. So make sure you come back or listen to some older ones, if you haven’t. If this is your first time, welcome.
We also have a store where we sell merch. We have a Kelis t-shirt. [2]
Christina: It had to be “I hate you so much right now.”
Miguel: “I hate you so much right now.” We'll put a link in the show notes or you can just go to our website, troypodcast.com… Uh no. You go to our store, which is Nuthin’ But a Tee Thang.
Christina: troypodcast.com has a link to it too.
Miguel: It does, but we want you to go to our store. We have a lot of other things there for you to check out as well. Hats, t-shirts, all that stuff. Mugs, caps, hoodies, jackets. So go check it out. It's not podcast themed, all of it. It is pop culture themed. Like I said, we got the Kelis t-shirt. Go ahead and grab yourself one. It's one of my favorite t shirts.
Christina: It is.
Miguel: I love that shirt. Also, we have a newsletter called Liner Notes that comes out once a month. So if you haven't signed up for that yet, go ahead and do that. It's free ninety nine. You don't have to pay for it. But if you don't like the newsletter, I guarantee your money back.
Christina: OK.
Miguel: So you can find that—
Christina: Just press unsubscribe.
Miguel: You can find that at troypodcast.com/newsletter, and that’s—
Christina: I don’t see why you wouldn't like the newsletter.
Miguel: You're going to love it. Trust me. You're going to love it. But that's all we have for this episode. So let's go ahead and get up out of here and get some food because I am hungry.
Christina: Me too. You may have heard my stomach grumbling in this episode.
Miguel: I’ve been pressing on mine for 20 minutes now. So we'll be talking to you guys in a couple weeks. Bye.
Christina: Bye.