Episode Summary
In this episode, we're discussing how Uptown Records reshaped that sound and style of a generation. From the rise of new jack swing with Teddy Riley and Guy, to Mary J. Blige and Jodeci redefining what R&B could be, Uptown didn't follow trends, it set trends. Uptown also helped to bring Black culture to both big and small screens with the film Strictly Business, and New York Undercover tv show. With the Uptown MTV Unplugged special, they proved that hip hop and R&B could hold its own in the same arena as pop and rock legends. Uptown was more than just a record label, and was the blueprint for pretty much every urban record label that followed.
Transcript
Christina: Welcome back to They Reminisce Over You, a podcast that takes a nostalgic look back at the best in music, movies and TV from the 80s, 90s and early 2000s. I'm Christina.
Miguel: And I'm Miguel. Christina, we've done episodes on Mary J. Blige, Heavy D and The Boyz, Jodeci, Teddy Riley. What do all these acts have in common?
Christina: [singing] “Uptown, Uptown.”
Miguel: Exactly. This week, we're discussing what I think is the most influential record label in hip hop and R&B history.
Christina: I agree.
Miguel: They are. And we're going to prove it by the end of this episode.
Christina: We are.
Miguel: So are you ready?
Christina: If you didn’t know, you will by the end.
Miguel: Exactly. So are you ready to get into it?
Christina: Let's do it.
Miguel: So the story of Uptown Records starts with one Andre Harrell. He was the founder. But his story goes further back than that by a couple of years. He was in a rap group called Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. I don't know if you listened to the link that I sent you.
Christina: I did. And that was my very first time listening to it. And I basically just kind of skimmed through it. That was enough for me.
Miguel: Well, we know that late 70s, early 80s rap wasn't the best.
Christina: They were finding their footing.
Miguel: Yeah, people were still growing. It was evolving at a very fast rate. But this was bad. I'm just going to put it out there and say it was bad.
Christina: The album cover? [1]
Miguel: Oh, the album cover is hilarious.
Christina: That's very ,what will become, you know, Strictly Business type of movies.
Miguel: That was his whole swag.
Christina: Yeah. Boomerang, things like that. But they have a boom box because they're hip hop.
Miguel: Exactly. So like I said, the album was it was not good, but it got him in the industry.
Christina: It did.
Miguel: Eventually, he got a job at Def Jam. And in two years, worked his way up to General Manager and Vice President. The story kind of parallels his protege that he had at Uptown, the more that I listen to it and think about it. Y’all probably know who that is, but we're not going to mention him right now.
But after being at Def Jam for two years, MCA Records offered him a joint venture to start his own label. And that became Uptown.
Now, before we skip ahead to the 90s, the era that you started with, we're going to talk about the era that I started with in the late 80s, the Uptown that I fell in love with and the era that hooked me in.
Christina: Yeah. So what made you fall in love with this era? And what do you think led to Uptown's success in this era?
Miguel: Because everything they were putting out was just done at a high level. Like, the first thing I can remember hearing is probably Heavy D & The Boyz. And that came out and it was banging, at least to me.
Christina: “Moneyearnin’ Mount Vernon.”
Miguel: “Moneyearnin’ Mount Vernon.”
Christina: With Al B. Sure! crooning on the hook.
Miguel: Yes, “Mr. Big Stuff,” all that, the early Heavy D & The Boyz.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: And like you said, Al B. Sure! was crooning on that album on like, three or four songs. Then his album comes out and it’s like, hey, that's the dude from the Heavy D album.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: There was a few other acts around as well that weren't as successful like, Groove B. Chill, who are more famous for being in the House Party movie and now Darryl Mitchell becoming an actor further down the road.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: Then they were as a rap group. Christopher Williams came in later around ’88, ’89. Guy was on the label. So, you know, Uptown really kicked off the New Jack Swing movement as well because Teddy Riley and we discussed that in the episode we did about him.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: So basically, they were shaping the culture like it wasn’t—
Christina: It wasn't just music, it was a lifestyle.
Miguel: Yeah, it was everything because with like Def Jam, for example, or Cold Chillin’, they were just giving you, we rapping, love it or leave it alone basically. Whereas, like you said, Uptown was selling the lifestyle. And that's basically what we bought into.
Christina: I think it's just hilarious that Al B. Sure! and Christopher Williams, and I'm pretty sure I've said this before, look so much alike, but in terms of their vocals is like, opposite of the spectrum.
Miguel: They couldn't be more different vocally at all. Yeah, but those acts basically held it down for Uptown in the mid to late 80s.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: Because like I said, some of the other acts didn't take off, but those four basically got them through to the next era.
Christina: So, who would you say is the face of Uptown if you had to pick one?
Miguel: I thought about this and it's hard because they all had moments.
Christina: And I think they kind of like, even though the music is all classified as R&B and hip hop, but they each had their own lane.
Miguel: Yeah, it was different with all of them. Even at one point when you take away the music and like, Teddy Riley is producing for Bobby Brown, he's doing outside stuff and Kyle West and Al B. Sure! producing for Tevin Campbell and Ralph Tresvant, they were having success outside of Uptown, even though they were still putting music out there.
I guess I'm gonna have to say Heavy D though, because he was pretty consistent across the board and he tied together both the old school Uptown era plus the later 90s era. He crossed both eras at Uptown. So, I'm gonna say he was the face.
Christina: Well, Elektra on Pose would say Al B. Sure!.
One of my favorite scenes, if you know the TV show Pose, they brought up Al B. Sure! and she's, “Al B. Sure! He's the Marvin Gaye of our time. Let me go get my tape.” Oh my gosh. I had to rewatch it today and I love it.
Miguel: That's a great scene.
Christina: Great scene. If you don't know Pose, check it out.
Miguel: Yeah, and well, actually, we can't link to it on the website because you couldn't find a video.
Christina: No, I couldn't, but I could list the episode.
Miguel: Yeah, but it's playing on Disney and if you have Disney+, you can go check out that episode of Pose[2].
Miguel: We'll link it on the website.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: So even though you didn't experience this era in real time, just looking back at it, what are some of your songs from this time?
Christina: Speaking of Al B. Sure!, I like “Nite and Day.” I actually like it better than “Off on Your Own.” “Off on Your Own, (Girl.)” But I love “Nite and Day.”
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: And I'm sure I've also mentioned this before, but I will still never get over the fact that I was hanging out at Starbucks in our old neighborhood and just saw this middle-aged white man walk by with a custom Blue Jays jersey with Al B. Sure! at the back.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: I don't remember the number though. Oh, I have a picture somewhere.
Miguel: Yeah, you sent me the picture and I still have it. I'm pretty sure I posted it on Instagram as well.
Christina: Just going on a walk with his, he had a kid in a stroller and a little girl walking with him.
Miguel: With an Al B. Sure! jersey on.
Christina: Al B. Sure! custom Blue Jays jersey.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: Because I don't think you can just get a Blue Jays jersey with Al B. Sure!
Miguel: You cannot.
Christina: Anyways, so I really like “Nite and Day.” I like all the Guy stuff. But yeah, as you said, I didn't experience it in real time. I went back and found these songs after getting into some of the other stuff in the 90s.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: I would say “Nite and Day.” And what did I say, Guy?
Miguel: I'm going to go with, like you said, Guy. So, “Groove Me,” “Moneyearnin’ Mount Vernon,” Heavy D & The Boyz. And “I’m Dreaming,” Christopher Williams.
Christina: Yes, yes, yes. I couldn't remember if that was the 80s or 90s.
Miguel: I think that was on his first album.
Christina: OK.
Miguel: No, it was on the New Jack City soundtrack. So, that would make it 90s. Scratch that from the record. Christopher Williams, you're outta here.
Christina: Into the next segment.
Miguel: Yes. You get a reprieve in the next segment. I think that's a good spot for us to take a quick break. And we'll be right back.
Jay Ray: Do do do, break time, Jesus!
Miguel: Oh, that's great.
[Break]
Miguel: Hi, kids. Do you like fun?
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: We're starting a monthly newsletter called Liner Notes. We'll be sharing what we're watching, what we're listening to, throwback YouTube videos, updates on our upcoming projects, random shit you may have missed on the Internet, stuff like that. The link is in the show notes or you can go to troypodcast.com/newsletter. Do it. It's good for you.
Christina: It'll make your teeth whiter.
Miguel: And back to the show.
Christina: I think we need to give our listeners a little context of what that drop you played was.
Miguel: Yes. So, if you haven't heard our previous episode, “White People Jams,” which we did with Jay Ray and DJ Sir Daniel of Queue Points Podcast, that was Jay Ray when we were going to a break in that episode. And we decided that we're going to keep it and use it in our own recordings. So I thought it was funny. We thought it was funny and-
Christina: It was in context at the time.
Miguel: It was.
Christina: It's out of context now, but that doesn't matter. “Jesus!”
Miguel: Exactly. All right, let's get back to it. In the early 90s, Uptown actually helped kill the thing that they popularized in the late 80s, which was New Jack Swing.
Christina: Yes. Some of them tried to hang on to it a little bit.
Miguel: Yeah. The transition was rougher for some than others.
Christina: Yes. So, the second wave of acts brought in this new sound.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: And so that's when the style and image of Uptown started to dominate, quote, unquote, urban music. And also this is when the label became legendary. As we spoke in the first segment, there were artists that were changing music then, they were popular, they were making good music, but Jodeci and Mary changed everything.
Miguel: Yeah. Uptown became the blueprint of pretty much every R&B/hip hop label that came after. Because like we mentioned before, it wasn't just the music, it was the fashion, it was the attitude. They influenced music in the 80s, but in the 90s, they touched on everything. Music, movies, TV, all of that.
Christina: Fashion.
Miguel: Fashion. And because we've done episodes on a lot of these people who were on Uptown at the time, other than Teddy Riley/Guy, Heavy D & The Boyz, Mary J. Blige, or Jodeci, who was your favorite artist on Uptown? Other than them, because we've already talked enough about them.
Christina: Not favorite artist, next tier favorite artist.
Miguel: Yeah, the B-Team.
Christina: The B-Team. I'm gonna go with maybe Lost Boyz or Soul For Real.
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: Because those two groups, like, I actually listen to albums, whereas most of the other second wave artists aside from the heavyweights. Mostly I just like singles and stuff.
Unfortunately, which I'm pretty sure I've also mentioned before when we were talking about boy groups, Soul For Real was only able to release one proper album, but I think they could have been, been more had label issues not happened. At least from their side of the story.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: But yeah, I would say those two groups, because like I said, I really liked Christopher Williams, which I was gonna mention since he was part of the first group, but he also was still there for the second group. But again, it's mostly just like, singles. Like, I love “Every Little Thing You Do.”
Miguel: Which has been stuck in my head since yesterday when I was watching the Unplugged, but we'll get into that later.
Christina: You know I like aggressive R&B, so the fact that he starts the song with, ah, that's all me.
Miguel: Oh man.
Christina: What about you?
Miguel: Well, I make fun of his vocals a lot. And just two, three hours ago, I was clowning his antics in his music videos, but I'm going to go with Al B. Sure!.
Christina: Those antics though, y’all need to watch these old videos. [3]
Miguel: He was doing a lot in these videos.
Christina: Oh yeah.
Miguel: The faces he was making, the dance moves, all of it.
Christina: It was very, what did I say? Chippendale, like he's a Chippendale?
Miguel: Right.
Christina: Trying to get the ladies interested.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: Body rolling, not even, I don't even know if I, yeah, he was doing some body rolling.
Miguel: It was a lot of, I saw Michael Jackson do this once, so I'm going to do it now, is what he was doing in those videos.
Christina: And all the come hither looks.
Miguel: Yes. Yeah, like I said, I make fun of him a lot, but his first album, I actually really like a lot, even though the vocals aren't the best.
Christina: So, you don't think he's “the Marvin Gaye of that time,” as Elektra said?
Miguel: He is not “the Marvin Gaye of their time,” but I do enjoy the album.
Christina: Okay.
Miguel: And I had it on cassette as a kid, so I'm going with Al B.
Christina: Okay. I'm going to take it back a little bit.
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: Even though we said we weren't going to talk about the heavyweights, but I guess what was the turning or which song was the turning point where you were like, Uptown has changed?
Miguel: I don't think it was a song, really. I think it was just the whole Mary J. Blige, Jodeci of it all with the “hip hop soul,” if you will.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: That was when it shifted for me. And I guess technically, if you do want to point to a song as a turning point, it's actually two songs then.
Christina: Okay.
Miguel: And they're both by Father MC. Because he had Jodeci singing background on one song and Mary J. Blige singing background on another. That probably would have to be the turning point because that gave them an opportunity to go on and become who they became.
Christina: Actually that's an interesting point because one of the things that made Uptown this like, powerhouse label is the way that they used the more established artists at the time to train and introduce the upcoming artists.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: And then you're like, everything kind of ties together. Okay, you like this Father MC song. You see this like, girl singing in the back with that little blonde ponytail. And then you see Mary J. Blige and you're like, hey, isn't that that little singing girl with the blonde ponytail?
Miguel: Exactly.
Christina: You kind of like, you're primed for the next thing.
Miguel: And same with Jodeci is like, those are the dudes that were singing background for Father MC. And it goes back to the Heavy D stuff. Like I mentioned, you had Al B. Sure! singing hooks on Heavy D's album. And Teddy Riley doing some production on Heavy D's album. And then a Guy album comes out and the Al B. Sure! album comes out. It's like, hey, those are the guys from the Heavy D stuff. So, it was a thing that they were doing.
Christina: Because there was this interview[4] that you sent me with Father MC, and he's talking about how when he was writing, “Treat Them How They Want To Be Treated,”[5] and he was thinking about how the hook was supposed to sound. They had somebody sing the hook—
Miguel: Yeah, he said it was Cory Rooney.
Christina: Yes. And it was just like, you know, the way, [singing] “treat them how they want to be treated.” And then K-Ci got a hold of it. It's like, oh, it's just like, okay, this is it. We got something.
Miguel: Right.
Christina: He said, run me my money. He's like, all I was doing was waiting for the paycheck after I heard that. So, I think what we always talk about with what's different in music today is there was more time to nurture artists.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: And like, give them practice before pushing them out to the big stage. So, I think that's what Uptown did really well.
Miguel: Artist development.
Christina: Yes. This little thing called artist development.
Miguel: Imagine that. We need to get back to it.
Christina: Yes.
Miguel: So, which artists do you think had the strongest debut album?
Christina: You know, it's always going to go back to either Mary or Jodeci.
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: And I don't know if I could pick one. Too hard. One of them two.
Miguel: Okay, so, What's the 411?
Christina: I'm gonna go with What's the 411? because it was a more full album.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: Yes.
Christina: Whereas as we've talked about before, Jodeci had like five bangers and then it kind of petered out.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: But like, was it four or five, six songs?Five. So, the first five songs.
Miguel: Yeah, I think it's the first five. And then we get into them doing the New Jack Swing stuff, which really doesn't work.
Christina: Trying to hang on to that.
Miguel: And then they close the album with a mid tempo song. It wasn't slow. It wasn't New Jack Swing, but “Xs We Share” brought it back.
Christina: Yes.
Miguel: It was like, we got something here.
Christina: I actually like the whole album. I don't mind the uptempo songs, but they're definitely not as strong as the ballads and not as strong as Mary's What's the 411? overall.
Miguel: Yeah, for me, I couldn't do it. I would listen to that first side and then fast forward all the way to “Xs We Share,” listen to it and then start the cassette over. And then when I got the CD eventually, that's when I would just skip through it because I couldn't do it.
Christina: And you could start programming stuff with the CD too.
Miguel: And then once they started making the remixes, and I would get the cassette singles, that kind of helped offset the songs I didn't like on the album.
Christina: Right. And even like the remixes, as you're saying, like, the “Come and Talk to Me” remix,[6] that really solidified like, oh, we're hip hop. Yes, we're crooning and begging and all this stuff, but we're also hip hop.
Miguel: Right. Yeah, for me, I'm going to say it was a toss up for me as well. And What's the 411? is one of them. And the other one was the first Guy album. So, between those two, I think it's the stronger debut. So, since you went with What's the 411?, I'll take Guy.
Christina: Since that was your era anyway.
Miguel: It was. So was What's the 411?.
Christina: Yeah, but that was your first introduction. I had to go back to get that.
Miguel: Yeah, but you saying it like I was a fully grown adult listening to it. I was 10. 10 and 11.
Christina: But you got to listen to it in real time.
Miguel: I did.
Christina: I had to do research.
Miguel: I did.
Christina: I had to be like, What? That's Teddy Riley? He was in a group. So, we keep mentioning how Uptown was sort of everything, not just music. So, in terms of visuals, then, what is your favorite Uptown music video?
Miguel: I thought long and hard about this. And there's so many that I could choose from. But I'm going to go with Heavy D & The Boyz, “Nuttin’ But Love,”[7] because it gave us everything that Heavy D was. Like the premise of the video is just him, his dancer, G-Wiz. I don't know where DJ Eddie F was because he's not in the video. Chris Tucker and Talent are in the video.
Christina: Chris Tucker?
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: I don't remember.
Miguel: Him and Talent are hanging out at a bar.
Christina: Who's Talent?
Miguel: Stand up comic, Def Jam. You know who he is. If you saw him, you would know him. And they're hanging out at the bar. Heavy D comes in, they have a conversation, and the bar is just full of models. And they're just hanging out and dancing with models in the entire video. And that's what Heavy D was. He was the ladies man.
Christina: The overweight lover.
Miguel: Yes. So, I think that's the perfect video. And I'm watching it. And like I said, it's just the four of them, a bunch of models, and then I saw a little kid dancing in there too. It's like, whose little boy is this? He's like, an eight year old just grooving with a bunch of models. But yeah, that's the video I'm going to go with.
Christina: Okay.
Miguel: Sidebar here, though, earlier today, we were talking about, have we ever seen Mary J. Blige not wearing boots? And—
Christina: Aside from being barefoot. We've seen her barefoot.
Miguel: Seen her barefoot. We've seen her in boots.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: And I thought I had an answer.
Christina: Okay.
Miguel: I thought it would be the “Love @ First Sight” video[8] because I was remembering her and I can't even say his name. Sitting on sitting on the steps in the video, right. And I thought she had some sneakers on. I was remembering her wearing sneakers. She was actually wearing boots. She was wearing boots that looked like chucks, but they were pointy. I'd have to show it to you, with laces.
Christina: Oh, I know what you're talking about.
Miguel: Yeah. So I'm like, oh, she was wearing sneakers. Wrong.
Christina: Sneaker boots.
Miguel: Not even. And then there's a scene where she's dancing and she got on like a little short set, like an Adidas short set, and I’m like, sneakers, she's wearing sneakers. Wrong. They got closer to her. Technically they were sneakers, but they're boxing boots.
Christina: No, that doesn't count.
Miguel: Yeah, it does. They're still boots.
Christina: No, no, that's what I mean. It doesn't count as not boots. They're boxing boots.
Miguel: So, if there's anybody out there that has seen Mary J. Blige not in boots, could you let us know?
Christina: I feel like I've seen it once, but I can't remember where I allegedly saw this, because I feel like one time I was like, oh my God. In my mind, I think it might have been some kind of red carpet, but I might just be making this up.
Miguel: I thought I was right, too. That was going to be the one, because I could see the entire video in my head. And I'm like, yeah, that's the one. She's not wearing boots in that. Wrong. Anyway.
Christina: The closest you're going to get is her barefoot in the not, “Not Tonight”—
Miguel: Yeah, “Not Tonight” video.
Christina: “Not Tonight” video.
Miguel: Oh, man. Anyway, what's your favorite Uptown music video?
Christina: Well, I'm going to sound like a broken record and a total fan girl. But of course, it's Mary J. Blige again. “Real Love.”[9]
Miguel: Color me shocked.
Christina: Color you shocked. I thought about picking a Jodeci video because you know, for me, like, my top, top, top is always Mary and Jodeci somewhere in that top list.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: Whatever your top X is, Mary and Jodeci will probably find their way up there.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: Yeah. So I thought about picking Jodeci, but I think on a more like, personal level, Mary's “Real Love” video struck me a little more because of the style, the swag, or the dancing, the clothes. It's something that could like, influence me personally.
Miguel: Okay
Christina: Like, even though a lot of the clothing styles were very like, unisex at the time, so it's not like, like, I would wear, you know, a vest that Jodeci would wear, like, that wouldn't be too unusual.
But I think Mary also just being a woman, and she was young, even though she was, you know, an adult and I wasn't, but she was young. I think that kind of like, influenced me more personally, like, that just kind of left an imprint in my brain.
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: And I think for me at least, the difference between the second wave of artists versus the first wave is I feel like, and it could just be because I wasn't familiar with them in the 80s, but I feel like there was more of a push for you to know that they were on Uptown.
Like, it just seemed like the brand of Uptown was stronger with these artists, where you're like, oh, they're on this Uptown record label, whereas the 80s stuff is like, like they were just artists on some like, but again, like I said, it probably just because, oh, well, you know, they did come out with that “Uptown, Uptown” video, so—
Miguel: Yeah, they had a compilation album where they had the “Uptown Is Kickin’ It,” the music video[10] and song with all the artists on it. So they were pushing Uptown as a brand then to.
Christina: That's true. I guess that's just my frame of reference.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: Being a couple years later.
Miguel: Right.
Christina: All right. So for this next question, we are always complaining about every time you watch a YouTube video, it'll be like some big artist and there's always someone in the comments, this person is so underrated.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: Like, it'll be somebody, who did I see recently that I was complaining about seeing the underrated comment?
Miguel: I don't know.
Christina: Anyways, whatever. It's usually people who are totally, oh, En Vogue.
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: Yeah. I was watching an En Vogue video. But we're going to try to take underrated back to its original meaning.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: Who do you think is the most underrated artist on this roster?
Miguel: That's an easy answer for me.
Christina: Okay.
Miguel: Lost Boyz.
Christina: And why do you say that?
Miguel: Because most people have forgotten about them probably. But for a moment, they had a nice little run. That Legal Drug Money album, that was my shit.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: You had the [singing] “Jeeps, Lex Coups, Bimaz & Benz” and “Renee” and [singing] “Lifestyles of the Rich and Shameless.” That was my shit too. “Music Makes Me High.”
Christina: Yes.
Miguel: They were street, but they weren't afraid to have fun because they were always dancing in the videos.
Christina: In the, I can't remember which video, but they're literally doing a ring around the posy dance[11] with each other, like holding hands and jumping around in a circle.
Miguel: And they would do this in all the videos. So, I wasn't afraid to say that I like Lost Boyz. So that's my pick for the most underrated artists on the roster of Uptown Records.
Christina: So, you said that you think most people have probably forgotten about them, but how do you feel they did at the time?
Miguel: They weren't really big either. Like I said, they did have a little moment where they had these songs—
Christina: Because I loved them.
Miguel: And they were getting played on the radio. They were getting played in the videos, but it came and went real quick.
Christina: Yeah. Nobody says Mr. Cheeks is my favorite rapper.
Miguel: You don't say Mr. Cheeks is your favorite rapper. And him going solo was bigger than the Lost Boyz stuff.
Christina: Was it?
Miguel: Yeah. “Lights, Camera, Action”[12] was huge.
Christina: Yeah, that's true. I think even with his solo stuff, I always just think of him as Lost Boyz.
Miguel: And it's like, no fault of his own because Freaky Tah was killed. One of them got arrested and it just left him. So, he kind of had to do it.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: So yeah, that's who I'm going with is the most underrated Lost Boyz.
Christina: Okay. I'm going to pick Soul For Real. And my reason is because whenever people think Soul For Real, they always think “Candy Rain.”
Miguel: Right.
Christina: But they have other songs. “Every Little Thing I Do”[13] is a bop.
Miguel: Okay, I know that one.
Christina: But I think I think those two were the only ones they released the singles.
Miguel: And those are the only two that I know.
Christina: But I actually like “Every Little Thing I Do” better than “Candy Rain.”
Miguel: And the “Candy Rain” remix, too.
Christina: Well, that's because it's still technically the same song. But I I actually like “Every Little Thing I Do” better. And so, I hate the default always goes to “Candy Rain.” And then there's a couple of album cuts that are good. They actually have a cover of “If Only You Knew,” it's nice.
Miguel: And I haven't heard that.
Christina: I am sure I played a few because I'm basically recycling what I said about them in our boy bands, “Nayhoo” episode, but I will play it for you again.
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: But yeah, the album is actually pretty good. The first album, they did have a second album, but that was like, they weren't able to put the right effort into it.
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: But yeah, the first album is actually pretty good. I will play it for you again.
Miguel: All right, you do that. I think that's a good time for us to take another break and we'll be right back.
[Break]
Miguel: This is They Reminisce Over You, I'm Miguel.
Christina: And I'm Christina. We wanted to take a minute to make a small request of all our listeners. If you're listening to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Goodpods or Podchaser, leave us a 5 star rating. You can also leave a review as well on Apple, Goodpods and Podchaser. Ratings and reviews will help us with discoverability and we want to get this out to as many like minded folks as we can.
Miguel: We want to get on the first page of these podcast apps.
Christina: And to move up on the charts as well. So help us get the word out.
Miguel: Make sure to follow and interact with us on social media. Also check out our website, troypodcast.com. It's where we post links to a lot of the things that we've mentioned in the show, as well as transcripts and themed playlists that supplement our episodes and more.
Christina: Thank you again for your support.
Miguel: All right. We are back and we've talked about the music of Uptown. Let's talk about some of the TV shows and movies that they produced.
Christina: Yes. One of my favorites, New York Undercover.
Miguel: They had a police procedural, New York Undercover, that had two people of color as the leads.
Christina: Oooh.
Miguel: It was the first time. It hadn't been done before.
Christina: Yeah, and they didn't like that after a while.
Miguel: Well, they, of course, we had to go back to, let's whiten this up a little bit. Even though they did have one white character in the beginning.
Christina: Oh, yeah.
Miguel: The sergeant or whatever. She was there. But the leads were Malik Yoba and Michael DiLorenzo. The show was originally called Uptown Undercover.
Christina: Of course.
Miguel: But it was eventually renamed and it ran on Thursday nights with Living Single and Martin.
And that's the reason that I never really watched any Seinfeld episodes until like maybe five years ago.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: Because I was rocking with the Fox lineup of Martin, Living Single and New York Undercover. But it being a police procedural, what made it different from like, Law and Order or whatever, is it had a hip hop aesthetic and every episode they had a musical performance.
Christina: Yes. Although Dick Wolf still of course had his hands in this.
Miguel: Yes. It was very hip hop and they had hip hop and R&B playing on the soundtrack throughout the scenes where they're chasing somebody.
Christina: The cold open always started with like a bang.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: Like the clip you sent me today, “Slam,” Onyx.
Miguel: Yes. Jim Jones getting slammed against the gate.[14]
Christina: A young Jim Jones that I did not recognize because his braids were too clean.
Miguel: Yes. And musical performances at Natalie's, which they would conveniently show up at every episode. You had not only uptown artists performing but a lot of other artists as well. Slick Rick, Tony, Toni, Toné. The generation before us had some come out. Gladys Knight and Chaka Khan.
Christina: So well, Gladys Knight was Natalie.
Miguel: She was Natalie.
Christina: Yes.
Miguel: And so it was a showcase for urban music.
Christina: Yeah. So like, yeah, technically it was a TV show, but he still brought music into it.
Miguel: Yeah. And you rewatched some of the seasons recently. What was it like watching it all these years later?
Christina: Well, I'm not going to lie. There was definitely some cringy part with just being dated. And I think they were really laying it on thick to make JC and Torres like, cool hip hop dudes. And like, I could still see Torres. Wasn't he one of the dancing gangsters and one of Michael Jackson's?
Miguel: Yeah, he was in the “Beat It” video and he was also on Fame.
Christina: Yes.
Miguel: So, he's a cast member on Fame.
Christina: So basically, it's like you're just seeing them kind of play up being like, I'm hip hop, I'm tough, I'm cool. But that was the point at the same time. So even if it felt a little cringy watching it years later, it's like, I don't mind because that was literally the point is to make them like that. But yeah, it felt dated, but I still enjoyed it. Some of the storylines could have been better, but it is what it is, a police procedural, right?
Miguel: And that's what TV was at the time. It was cheesy looking back at it now. But when we were in it, it was like, oh, this is the shit.
Christina: And it still was. I mean, it still held up in terms of for all the reasons we loved it. Like I said, the way they incorporated the music and just seeing people of color.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: And just also like, seeing a lot of young faces of people we now know.
Miguel: And you know how Dick Wolf does it. Everybody goes through Law and Order. So, why shouldn't you go through New York Undercover as well?
Christina: Every episode, I was like, hey, that's so and so. Hey, that's so and so. So, it was a good rewatch. Unfortunately, I no longer have access to it. I can't even remember where I was watching it. I think it might have been Prime.
Miguel: Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was on Prime.
Christina: Yeah. I remember I had to use the VPN. Now I can't get it at all.
Miguel: Oh, well.
Christina: Oh, well.
Miguel: Let's move on to the Uptown Unplugged MTV[15] special.
Christina: All right. So, let me do a little rundown of the lineup.
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: Since this came out in what, ’92, I believe?
Miguel: ’93.
Christina: Okay. So, you had a mix of some of the people who were there in the 80s and some of the newcomers. All right. So, they started with Jodeci, started off with a bang.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: And then we went into Father MC and then Mary J. Blige, Christopher Williams, and then Heavy D & The Boyz. Technically, they closed out because the very last song, everybody came out and did—
Miguel: “Next Stop, Uptown.”
Christina: Yes. A little collective song because that's what people did back then. We're a collective.
Miguel: You had to have a posse cut.
Christina: Yes.
Miguel: Did anything surprise you about how it sounded live?
Christina: Yeah. I wasn't going to concerts back then, so it's not like I had opportunities to hear what songs were going to sound like live. So, it was definitely interesting to hear how live instruments were used to recreate the beats and like, these changes in arrangements, more ad libs.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: Much more ad libs. And I think the thing that stood out to me the most is “Real Love” had all these horns on it, which is obviously not in the original song, so it was interesting to hear it performed like that.
Miguel: I wasn't expecting Christopher Williams to come out and do what he did. He basically came out and gave us his New Jack Swing Teddy Pendergrass.
Christina: Yes.
Miguel: I was not expecting that at all.
Christina: He did.
Miguel: Because like I said yesterday, I hadn't seen it since it aired until I watched it yesterday and completely forgot about it. Like, I'd seen the clips of Mary and K-Ci singing and then “Lately” by Jodeci, obviously, but hadn't seen it in full. And then he comes out with this big ass Stussy jacket on. I didn't even know Stussy made these kind of coats. And it was huge and he just comes out growling through his set and I was not expecting that.
Christina: Oh, and he was throwing these ad-libs on at the end and the runs. And there was something that cracked us up. And we were just like, is that on the original song?
Miguel: I don't remember what it was.
Christina: I think it was, it was “All I See.” I'm certain, almost certain it was “All I See,” but I can't remember what he was saying that made us like, did he say that on the original song? I gotta go back to it and of course I forgot.
Miguel: And then of course he's running around the room and singing at the same time. He's running through the crowd, dancing with people, getting in women's faces and singing at the same time.
Christina: And there was that one dude who was very intent on getting a dap.
Miguel: Yes, he really wanted to dap.
Christina: In between him dancing with the ladies.
Miguel: So yeah, that was my biggest surprise.
Christina: Yeah, and the thing is, is like, you have these singers who are already very powerful singers and then you put them live and they just took it to another level.
Miguel: Yeah, what I did notice is there were people that didn't come to the taping. I'm not going to say any names, but everybody who did come and perform, as Prince would say, “the mic was on.”
Christina: It was on.
Miguel: So, the mic was on.
Christina: Are you saying they didn't come as in they weren't invited?
Miguel: I'm going to say they weren't invited because the mic wouldn't have been on.
Christina: Oh, I see what you're saying. So, they're like, let's bring the people who could put on a live show.
Miguel: Hashtag, singers only. Not, not—
Christina: Yes, yes, yes.
Miguel: Others.
Christina: I see what you're saying now, because now I'm thinking about who's missing.
Miguel: So, yeah.
Christina: All right. We'll just leave that at that.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: Yeah. So, definitely. I mean, it was fun watching it again. I was like, that was a good show. Like, I would have loved to see something like that live.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: Because, I mean, we got to see Jodeci live and I enjoyed it. Don't get me wrong. But Jodeci, 20 years later, it's not the same as 90s Jodeci.
Miguel: 30.
Christina: 30, yeah, yeah. And those clips of Mary's concerts right now is not that. Not the Uptown Unplugged performance.
Miguel: Exactly. So, did the live band portion of it change the energy?
Christina: Oh, definitely. Like, pretty much what I just said, just having the different instrumentation. And I feel like it probably made them feel more too. Like, it just seemed like everyone was showing off their singing chops.
Miguel: Yeah, there was a lot of that.
Christina: I think the energy of the band, I feel like probably helped with the uptempo performance. Because like, we were kind of focusing on the singers, but even the two rap acts, Father MC and Heavy D, like, there's a certain energy that comes with being live. There's more of like a party energy. And, you know, these are rappers that know how to perform live and not just scream into a mic.
Miguel: Exactly.
Christina: So, I think that helped everyone's energy to either like, sing harder or just create more of like, a party communal vibe.
Miguel: Yeah. And a lot of the artists that were there, actually all of the artists that were there, the music that they made had a lot of samples in it, or it had a lot of drum programming and drum machines and keyboards in it. But this with the live instrumentation gave it like, a warmer feel to the music.
Christina: Yes, yes.
Miguel: And like you said, they were in there sanging.
Christina: Yes.
Miguel: Just to let you know that the talent was in the room.
Christina: Mm-hmm.
Miguel: So, there was no shortage of like, good feelings and good music happening throughout all of the performances.
Christina: And I don't know if like, maybe the audience was told not to like, you can't stand up because, you know, obviously you don't want to like block the audience and you can't do it. I feel like the audience was more reserved in reaction to how they perform. But I would imagine that's probably a production thing.
Miguel: Yeah, I would say it's a production thing. And probably because it was MTV, the crowd was a little more diverse. So, there were people in the room that probably were like, what are we watching right now? Whereas the half of the other half of the room was like, this shit is slamming. This is what I'm here for. Like the woman that Christopher Williams was standing in front of and dancing. She's pointing at people, waving at people. She was having a good time. And then there was another woman that he was standing or singing to and she's just sitting there. No more emotion, nothing.
Christina: She just smiled at him.
Miguel: Yeah, so I think it was the crowd not knowing what they were getting into, just coming to see a show. And the production saying, hey—
Christina: Don't be standing up and blocking cameras and such.
Miguel: This ain't the Apollo.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: So, don't do that.
Christina: You can clap and stuff.
Miguel: Right.
Christina: Like, you are not to be seen.
Miguel: Exactly.
Christina: You're not the main character.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: Yeah, cause I was like, ooh, this is a great performance. Very high energy. Cause even like, the ballads and stuff, obviously that's not high energy, but it's high emotion.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: It's church.
Miguel: Basically. That's what it was.
Christina: So, I think this is an easy question.
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: Which song or songs do you think was better than the studio version?
Miguel: “Sweet Thing,” Mary J. Blige. I like that one better than the album version.
Christina: I was going to say, the reason why I said this is an easy question is, “Lately,” hands down.
Miguel: Yeah. I knew that's where you were going to go with it. So, that's why I decided to go with something different.
Christina: Okay.
Miguel: That one was too easy.
Christina: And I guess because also lately the studio version of “Lately” was, I believe, recorded after this.
Miguel: It was.
Christina: Right. So, they went in there and kind of like gave us a nice version.
Miguel: Although I really like the studio version.
Christina: I do too if I had never heard the live version. But the studio version is, it's nice. But the live version is, oh, that article[16] you sent me.
Christina: We need to link to it.
Miguel: Oh, did you read it?
Christina: I did.
Miguel: Yeah, that's great.
Christina: Actually, I took a screenshot because there was a couple of things I wanted to just quote. What's his name? I can't pronounce it.
Miguel: Jon Caramanica.
Christina: Yeah, he wrote about this performance, specifically the song, like, 20 years after.
Miguel: Yeah, it was like three or four years ago that this article came out.
Christina: Yeah, it was 2020. So he said, “K-Ci is perhaps a little peppier, a little more rascally than the song demands. But his vims turns out to be an asset. He's almost jaunty when singing, “When I ask you all the thoughts you're keeping, you just said,” then the nitrous oxide kicks in, K-Ci goes from bystander to victim, growling, “Nothing’s changed!”
Miguel: Oh man, yeah, there's a line in there that I forgot too, but I can't think of it right now, but it's best that y'all just go and listen to it, or read it.
Christina: The way he describes it is very accurate, but also not anything that I can describe better. So you definitely should read it.
Miguel: Yeah, what was the title of the article? Like, Jodeci's Lately Is The Greatest Thing Ever,?something along those lines.
Christina: Something like that. And he also ended the article saying that there's no better song ever, I think. Yeah, so we'll definitely link to that, and I highly recommend, if you've never read any of our links or read our transcripts or anything, that definitely, this is one, go read this.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: Go to our website and look at the transcripts so that you can find the links. You should definitely read this one.
Miguel: Yeah, you need the visuals with this, and we'll link to the Uptown performance as well.
Christina: Okay. So would you say that was the best performance of the night? We know Jon thinks so.
Miguel: I was going to go with Jodeci because they were a little more animated than everybody else, because they were all over the place. And I told you this yesterday when we went to see them last year, Dalvin and K-Ci were basically leading the performance.
Christina: One and two.
Miguel: So, K-Ci was in front, DeVante and Jojo were behind him, and Dalvin was just all over the place.
Christina: Yes.
Miguel: In the Uptown performance, Dalvin and DeVante's roles have switched over the years, because Jojo and Dalvin were together, where DeVante was all over the place. There was one scene where he ran across the stage and jumped on the piano and just laid there.
Christina: Yeah, because when you said, somebody jumped on the piano, I just assumed it was Dalvin,
Miguel: Because you would.
Christina: Because he was the one doing all the antics when we went to see them.
Miguel: So, I had to rewind it, and it was DeVante. He ran across the stage and slid across the piano.
Christina: But now DeVante is the laid back one, with Jojo.
Miguel: Exactly, they're the ones just off to the side, looking at their watches like, we still here? But I'm actually going to go with Christopher Williams as the best performance of the night, because like I said, I wasn't expecting him to do that. And then once he started doing the crowd work and running around the studio, I was shocked and like, you know what? He's doing all of this and not losing his breath while, [singing] “Take ‘em off!”
Christina: Yeah, with his Teddy Pendergrass cover.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: It worked though.
Miguel: It did.
Christina: Because his voice is like, similar.
Miguel: Yeah. So, I'm going to hit you with the same question.
Christina: You know what? I had to think about it. And you know what? You have convinced me too. I'm going with Christopher Williams too.
Miguel: Hell yeah.
Christina: Although everyone's performances were good, it was kind of what I would expect from them at that time.
Miguel: Right.
Christina: Whereas I guess I didn't really have any expectations of what Christopher Williams' performance would be like. I liked a handful of songs and obviously I knew he could sing, but I guess I wasn't expecting all those theatrics and showmanship.
Miguel: Exactly.
Christina: I guess maybe I'm reading into something that's not there, but maybe it was like, this is my time to shine. Because it's like, as we keep saying, when you think Uptown, it's Mary, Jodeci, Heavy D.
Miguel: I'm going to say yes, because I saw a video from the episode of Unsung[17] that he did where he was talking about going to Andre's office and destroying it, and throwing a couch through the reception window at Uptown because his version of “Come Over to My Place” was cut from what MTV aired.
And he took it out on Andre and the staff. They're thinking they had something to do with it, but Andre wasn't even in the building that day. So he was like, fuck it, I'm going to tear the office up. And he did. But Andre was like, we had no control over that. MTV decided what was going to go on the air. But if you watch like the home video version, which was what we watched yesterday, it had all of the performances in it. But that one was cut and he was not happy.
Christina: Because it was a good performance.
Miguel: It was. And he went and tore shit up.
Christina: He's like, I put my all into this and it didn't even make it to air.
Miguel: And he was the only one that was wearing like, an Uptown t-shirt, too. He was like, look, I'm reppin’. I'm doing my job and you're not going to put all of it on TV?
Christina: I can holler with the best of them.
Miguel: Somebody gots to pay. All right, before we get out of here, do you have any other thoughts on the legacy of Uptown Records?
Christina: Yeah, basically, without Uptown, there would probably be no Mary and no Jodeci. Like, I saw in an interview, Mary was talking about how Andre came to the hood to meet her. She was so impressed by that. So, it's hard to say if anybody else would have made that effort to go to her.
Miguel: Or even if they would have known.
Christina: To even find her. Yeah. So, can you imagine music without Mary and Jodeci?
Miguel: That would be difficult for me.
Christina: The other artists on the label had hits and stuff too, but these two acts changed the game. And not only that, it led to new changes. Without Uptown, there would be no Bad Boy.
Miguel: Yeah, there would be no Bad Boy. There would be no So So Def. There would be no Roc-A-Fella Records. At least not in the way that we know them now.
Christina: We don't know what it would have been like without Uptown.
Miguel: Uptown, they did it in a way where it was, we're better than y'all. But not, they didn't say it, but they lived it.
Christina: Yeah, they had a confidence in their swagger.
Miguel: Yeah, like Def Jam and Cold Chillin’ and all those other labels from back in the day, their entire goal was to say, we rap and we good. Uptown was like, we rap, we better than y'all. And we look good and smell good and feel good at doing it. Y'all want some champagne? Too bad. You can't have none because we bought out the bar.
Christina: We're the VIPs.
Miguel: Exactly. Nobody's sitting over here but us. That's what Uptown brought to the game. And they weren't only flashy, they were actually talented.
Christina: Yes.
Miguel: That was the biggest thing. They were flashy and showy, but they had the talent to back it up.
Christina: Definitely. It's not just music, it's a lifestyle.
Miguel: Movies, TV, we got all that.
Christina: Yeah. And I am very thankful for Uptown because that was the beginning for me.
Miguel: It brought you over to the dark side.
Christina: Yep. That was when it became official that this is what I like. Not what my sisters like or Top 40 or my friends even like. This is what I like.
Miguel: Right. That was a nice bow to put on this present.
Christina: All right.
Miguel: All right. So thank you again for listening to They Reminisce Over You. We try to do this every two weeks. So, make sure you come back and join us for the next episode and the episode after that and the episode after that. Also, we have a newsletter that comes out once a month called Liner Notes. Sometime between the first and the fourth of the month, depending on what the Friday falls on.
Christina: The first Friday of the month.
Miguel: Yeah, somewhere in there. So, we have things that we're reading, things that we're watching, just a bunch of fun stuff. So, sign up for the newsletter if you want to stay informed on what we're doing with our episodes and behind the scenes stuff.
Christina: I'm subscribed.
Miguel: She's subscribed. Why aren't you? Also, you can go to our website, troypodcast.com. We mentioned it earlier. We'll have links to some of the things we talked about in this episode. We'll have transcripts, all of that good stuff, all the information that you're looking for for Uptown, we have for you.
Also, we have a store called Nuthin’ But a Tee Thang. We have t-shirts, caps, goodies, mugs, all sorts of accessories. Go out and get yourself something nice. That is at teethang.com, T-E-E-T-H-A-N-G .com That's all we got for this week. The sun is shining on me and it's getting really warm. We don't have the AC on and I want to turn that back on right now. So, it's time for us to get out of here.
Christina: And I got pizza waiting for me.
Miguel: Yes, it's time to eat. So, we'll see y'all in a couple of weeks.
Christina: Bye.