Episode Summary
On this episode, we're getting into the musical evolution of 2Pac, one of hip hop's most complex and controversial voices. From the militant and revolutionary 2Pacalypse Now through the paranoia and revenge themes of The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory. We get into our favorite songs and talk about how each album reflected who 2Pac was at that particular moment. Join us on a journey through the music that defined the legacy of one of the all-time greats.
Transcript
Christina: Welcome back to They Reminisce Over You, a podcast that takes a nostalgic look back at the best in music, movies and TV from the 80s, 90s and early 2000s, aka stuff that old heads like. I'm Christina.
Miguel: And I'm Miguel. This week, we are discussing a rapper by the name of 2Pac Shakur. Maybe you've heard of him.
Christina: Not 2 Pack.
Miguel: Not 2 Pack, but 2Pac Shakur. We're only gonna talk about the music in this episode. We're not talking about his movies, we’re not talking about his drama, none of the conspiracy theories are surrounding his life. Just the albums that he was involved with prior to his death. So, none of the posthumous stuff, we’re only talking from 2Pacalypse Now to the Makaveli album.
Christina: Not the, let's dig up these old recordings and keep releasing albums.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: So, we're not gonna talk about him living in Cuba?
Miguel: We are not. So, are you ready to just get into it?
Christina: Let's do it.
Miguel: So, the first thing I want to ask you is, how would you describe 2Pac Shakur?
Christina: Well, every time I see him, the first thing I always say is he's so damn charismatic.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: I think that's probably what everyone says, or at least that's one of the first things that people say about him. I was watching the interview on Drink Champs[1] with Money B from Digital Underground, and he described him as just saying his personality really stood out, but he said he consumed the room.
Miguel: Yeah, that makes sense.
Christina: I can see that because if that's how it feels just watching him on screen, can you imagine like, in person what it would be like in person?
And so I think that charismatic energy is just so strong, and there's also this sincerity at the same time, and you know, I used to think it was like, oh, he has pretty eyes with these long eyelashes, but there's also this actual, like, sincerity in his eyes, too.
Miguel: Right.
Christina: And the passionate tone he takes with pretty much everything. Yeah, do you want to add something before I keep going on?
Miguel: I would say that, like you said, he is very charismatic, but he is also very chaotic.
Christina: Yes.
Miguel: And also very reserved at the same time. So, playing into his Gemini nature, depending on what time of day it is, that's what 2Pac you were going to get. You might get wild and amped up 2Pac, or you might get calm and apologetic 2Pac. So, that's the way I would describe it.
Christina: That was my fourth, the fourth word I had on my list to describe him was dichotomy.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: I think it might be, well, I know you don't really believe in astrology, but him being a Gemini explains a lot. But also, maybe it's like, this contrast of being like, really smart and really sensitive, but also being really young.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: And then being in the environment that he's in, it's kind of hard to not be all of that at the same. Like, how do you balance that, right? Like, one day you're going to be more of something than the other.
Miguel: Yeah. Especially with his chaotic upbringing too.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: That adds to how he acts.
Christina: For sure. And then like, reaching this superstardom status in such a short amount of time at such a young age.
Miguel: Yeah. When were you first aware of 2Pac? Was it the music or the acting?
Christina: So, even though I listened to Digital Underground, I think Juice was my actual like, introduction to him. Like, actually knowing it was him. Because I remember when I watched the movie, it wasn't like, oh, there's that guy from Digital Underground. It wasn't until after the movie, I saw an interview with Omar Epps on, I think it was Arsenio. And he was talking about Juice, but he's also talking about working on music and like, releasing an album.
And it sounded like it was going to happen soon. So, I was excited about that. And then I see the video for 2Pac's "Trapped,” and I'm like, hey, that's Bishop. Like, I thought Omar was supposed to be the rapper. So, I think I didn't make that connection, even though I did listen to some Digital Underground. I don't think I made that connection until like, after.
Miguel: Right. Well, at that point, he had only been on one song anyway. So, you wouldn't have noticed him in Digital Underground other than just the verse on "Same Song"
Christina: Right. Well, I guess now it's like, it's so like, it stands out so much because he's in the video, his voice is very, his voice is very recognizable. But yeah, I remember him from Juice first and then seeing "Trapped" after like, I thought Omar was supposed to be the rapper, not Bishop.
Miguel: And it's weird because most people either use acting to get into music or music to get into acting. But his career took off in both at the same time, because Juice came out six weeks after 2Pacalypse Now came out. So, they were running side by side with each other, which is, like I said, pretty rare. You usually go from one to the other, but he had both going at the same time.
Christina: And he was good at both.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: Because like we mentioned before with Ice-T, you know, some of his earlier acting is not as good as some of his later acting, whereas 2Pac was consistent from the beginning.
Miguel: Since you mentioned Digital Underground, let's take it back there. I was under the impression that Digital Underground had already come out and had a couple singles before they brought 2Pac in. But I was reading an interview with Shock G the other day, and he was actually around before their first album came out. I thought that he came along later, but he was there already. And they were working on the first album, and their manager brought him in to audition, him and Ray Luv, and Shock was like, yeah, I like this dude. We need to pull him in.
That did lead to him finally getting his shot on "Same Song" when he had the African garb on. I guess they put him in that outfit because his name was 2Pac, and it sounded ethnic or whatever. So, he did "Same Song" that comes out, Juice comes out a couple of weeks later, or actually, 2Pacalypse Now comes out a couple weeks later, and then Juice.
But 2Pacalypse Now didn't sound anything like "Same Song".
Christina: Not at all.
Miguel: So, when I heard I think "Trapped"or “If My Homies Call,” one of them, I was like, this don't sound anything like the fun, Digital Underground music that I'm used to. And because of his upbringing, the son of a Black Panther, his content was heavy on social issues, similar to Public Enemy, but more closer to Ice Cube, where it was conscious, but street.
What are your thoughts on the 2Pacalypse Now album?
Christina: Well, as I said, the first song I heard from him was "Trapped.” And the first line just always grabbed me when he's like, “you know, they got me trapped in this prison of seclusion.” I was like, oh, this guy knows how to put words together, so, I was definitely intrigued. And plus, you know, coming off of Bishop fame too, I was like, all right, I need to know more. Overall, it's not really an album that I listen to very often. And really, there's only a couple of songs.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: But it was enough to be like, this is worth keeping an eye on this person.
Miguel: Yeah, for me, it was right into what I was already listening to. Like I said, it's got some elements of Public Enemy. it's got some elements of Ice Cube. It's the album that you expect the son of a Black Panther who was raised in the crack era to make.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: It's militant. It's aggressive. It's the complete opposite of Digital Underground’s “Same Song". And that was my introduction to the music of 2Pac. It's like, all right, now we got another angry Black man, let's go.
Christina: Yeah, it's not a bad album, but it's an album that you like, want to listen to, it's not an album you just play for fun. And that's why I'm like, you know, it's not the first one I'm going to reach to when I just feel like listening to something.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: But I did really liked "Trapped" because I liked, like I was saying, like he had a way of of stringing words together and like, his flow and like, his rhyme patterns and he was very captivating.
Miguel: That's a good word for it. My favorite song on the album is “If My Homie Calls,” because it's one of the few like, fun songs.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: So, I like that one. I also like “Violent” too.
Christina: Okay.
Miguel: And I don't know why, but I've always loved that bass line in “Violent.” Just I love that
Christina: “Brenda's Got a Baby” is a little too conscious?
Miguel: I wouldn't say it's too conscious, but it's sad.
Christina: Yeah. You don't want to hear about a 12 year old throwing a baby in a garbage can.
Miguel: “I can't get jiggy with this bullshit.”[2]
Christina: We were dancing to Crystal Waters' She's Homeless, but she hid that under a funky house beat.
Miguel: Exactly. This one is all mellow and—
Christina: Sad.
Miguel: [singing] “Brenda…”
Dave Hollister, and we didn't know it was Dave Hollister at the time. But yeah, it was a little too ugh, for me to enjoy.
Christina: Yeah. That's not a song you enjoy.
Miguel: Exactly.
Christina: That's a song where you're like, I want to talk about the ills of the world.
Miguel: Yeah. It's like, this is a cool story.
Christina: That's cool.
Miguel: All right. So, the next album is Strictly For My N.I.G.G.A.Z.. That was his second album.
Christina: You got to say that album.
Miguel: Yeah. You can't say it, but I can.
Christina: I can't say that album.
Miguel: He made another appearance on the Digital Underground Sons of the P album on the D-Flo Shuttle. But that was more Digital Underground, he was still a little militant in it. But this album basically is where the 2Pac that we know now exploded because the production was much better than the first album. His celebrity had grown. People knew who he was because of Juice, not because of the music, because that wasn't selling very well, but he had a little fame on it.
So, what were your thoughts on this album versus 2Pacalypse Now?
Christina: I liked this one better, but it probably could have cut a few songs. It was like, 16 tracks. I think they could have made it a little bit shorter, but it definitely had more standout songs than the first album. The first album feels very much like, I want to rap about issues rather than like, I'm making songs. Whereas this one is more like, I'm making songs, even though those themes are still there, but we do get a little more variety. The funny thing is, in “Pac's Theme,” he addresses Dan Quayle,
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: VP at the time, about saying his first album, these types of records shouldn't be made. But the funny thing is, as you were just saying, the first album wasn't even that popular. Who told him about this album?
Miguel: Well, there was a case in Texas[3] where someone killed a cop, and his defense lawyer said that listening to 2Pacalypse Now made him want to go out and kill a cop.
Christina: Okay, because I'm like, who put this album on his radar?
Miguel: So, that's how it became known as this cop killer album and whatnot. They were trying to use it as a defense, saying it's 2Pac's fault that I killed this cop. But that's how it ended up on Dan Quayle’s radar, he wasn't just sitting around watching Yo! MTV Raps, and was like, who is this jigaboo talking about kill the cops?
Christina: That's what I'm saying. I was like, who told him about this?
Miguel: Yeah, it was a big thing.
Christina: All right. Well, in this album, he comes back with "Holler If Ya’ Hear Me," which is kind of a call to arms.
Miguel: Yeah, there's a few songs on this album that are— it's similar to the first one, but it's a little more organized.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: Like, I have a plan now.
Christina: Yeah. So, that song's actually one of my favorite 2Pac songs. I just love, like, there's this energy. And what I was saying with his way of, like, his flow and his way of rhyming, his rhyme patterns and stuff, you really hear it in this song.
And I just saw the video for the first time yesterday, when you were telling me wait ’til you get to the part of him twirling the cop hat around and dancing at the same time and saying that pretty much encompasses who 2Pac is.
Miguel: Yep, like, haha, come get me, pig. While he's twirling this policeman's cap.[4]
Christina: And having a good time and dancing.
Miguel: Yeah. Like, I dare you to come get me.
Christina: Yeah, I always associated that song with the Above The Rim movie, even though it's not officially on the soundtrack. They played it throughout the movie, so, I always associated with sports and basketball, basically. So, when I watched the video, I was like, no, this song is completely different from sports and basketball.
Miguel: Yes, yes it is.
Christina: I'm like, this is, like I said, a call to arms.
Miguel: Yeah, it's basically like...
Christina: Rallying the people.
Miguel: You're going to accuse me of being a cop hater, I’m going to show you a real cop hater in this video. So, that's what it was.
Christina: So, that's actually one of my favorite songs on this album and just one of my favorite 2Pac songs in general. And I'm sure you could figure out what the other two favorite songs I have.
Miguel: I'm going to say "I Get Around" and "Keep Ya Head Up.”
Christina: How do you know?
Miguel: Because that's everybody's favorite songs from this album, except for me.
Christina: What are your favorite songs then?
Miguel: I do like those two. But it's not at the top of my list like it is for everyone else when they talk about this album. For me, it would be “Peep Game” with Threat, “Representin’ ’93” because I love that Scarface sample. “I got a head, but ain't no screws in it.” And "Holler If Ya' Hear Me.” So, those are my three favorite songs from this album.
Christina: Not “Papa’z Song” featuring Mopreme, aka Mocedes the Mellow, quite the nice fellow?
Miguel: I really don't like, and we'll get into this later. I don't like 2Pac songs where he's on it and someone is not on his level. Like, I was cool with Ice-T and Ice Cube and Threat being on this album. Mocedes the Mellow—
Christina: “Quite the nice fellow.”
Miguel: aka Wycked.
Christina: aka Mopreme.
Miguel: He had so many names. Every album, he's got a different name. But I'm not trying to hear that level of rap with 2Pac.
Christina: [singing] “I’m so sorry.”
Miguel: It just brings it down.
Christina: It's like, a sad song too.
Miguel: It is.
Christina: Like, fuck my dad. I mean, I'm sure it works for some folks, but I don't believe it's not a song I need to be listening to.
Miguel: I get it, it's his stepbrother, so he's going to bring him along with him, but I don't need to hear it. I don't need to hear it.
Christina: I think, isn't it the last song or like second last song end, isn't it?
Miguel: It's close to the end.
Christina: If it was the last one, you could just stop.
Miguel: But at the same time, this is the era where the star of 2Pac was born. Like, he changed his cadence and delivery from the first album. His voice was a lot stronger, and just like I said, slowing down, the flow was key. And you could hear it in songs moving forward, too, like the Above The Law, “Call It What U Want.”[5]
And side note, I told you this yesterday, 2Pac is the first person to say G-Funk on a record[6] on “Call It What U Want.”
Christina: Of course he'd be the first one.
Miguel: Yeah, 187, who's in Above The Law, said that when they were writing the song, 2Pac asked them, what do y'all call your music? And he was like, G-Funk. So, he wrote it and put it in the verse.
Christina: Okay, so, I mean, technically, I mean, he said it publicly. He's the first person to say it publicly.
Miguel: He's the first person to say it on a record.
Christina: On a record, yes. Okay.
Miguel: But they were already calling it G-Funk.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: And then Dre got the credit for it, which we've talked about in other episodes, but 2Pac was the first person to say it in public on record.
Christina: Okay.
Miguel: That's all.
Christina: Okay. A little, the more you know.
Miguel: Yes, exactly. I think it's time for us to take a quick break. Because I need some water.
Christina: Okay.
Miguel: And we'll be right back.
[Break]
Miguel: This is They Reminisce Over You. I'm Miguel.
Christina: And I'm Christina. We wanted to take a minute to make a small request of all our listeners. If you're listening to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Goodpods, or Podchaser, leave us a 5 star rating. You can also leave a review as well on Apple, Goodpods, and Podchaser. Ratings and reviews will help us with discoverability, and we want to get this out to as many like-minded folks as we can.
Miguel: We want to get on the first page of these podcast apps.
Christina: And to move up on the charts as well. So help us get the word out.
Miguel: Make sure to follow and interact with us on social media. Also, check out our website, troypodcast.com. It's where we post links to a lot of the things that we've mentioned in the show, as well as transcripts and themed playlists that supplement our episodes and more.
Christina: Thank you again for your support.
Miguel: All right, and we are back. And now we're going to talk about Thug Life, Volume 1. This is when he decided he was going to put his crew on, his brother and Rated R and Macadoshis in a crew called Thug Life. I wasn't a fan because, like I said, I don't like when he tries to bring people below him in.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: I need the same caliber of rapper with 2Pac.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: So, all the songs on this album, I only like his verses.
Christina: I don't think I ever even listened to this album until yesterday. Because the only song that I know and like is “Pour Out A Little Liquor,” but I associate that with the Above The Rim soudtrack.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: So I was just like, I always forget that that technically is a Thug Life song.
Miguel: Right.
Christina: And not just 2Pac and friends. Even when I was looking at this, I was like, Thug Life Oh yeah, those guys.
Miguel: Yeah, this was kind of the transition into the dark and depressing 2Pac.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: Because you had “How Long Will They Mourn Me?,” “Cradle To The Grave,” “Pour Out A Little Liquor.” So, we're starting to kind of drift away from the militant, raise a Black fist in the air music to I'm in the hood and this shit is wearing me down.
Christina: I'm sad.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: Tired of this shit.
Miguel: Like I'm trying to be a strong young black man, but this is wearing me down.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: So, that's what the this album to me is starting to trend in that direction. So, I'm not even going to ask you what your favorite songs are since you only knew “Pour Out A Little Liquor.”
Christina: I think I may have heard “How Long Will They Mourn Me?” because it sounds familiar.
Miguel: But yeah, I'm sure you've heard that one. [singing] “How long will they mourn me?”
Christina: But I needed a reminder.
Miguel: So, for me, I do like “Straight ballin’,” I like “Cradle To The Grave,” “Pour Out A Little Liquor.” Basically, like I said, if you could take those dudes off of the records, it would be a lot better. And I have a goal of doing this one day. Just taking Thug Life off of songs, taking Dramacydal/The Outlawz off of songs. That's what I'm going to do.
Christina: Well, my note said I basically zoned out until 2Pac shows up.
Miguel: Pretty much.
Christina: Well, this isn't on the Thug Life album, but just before, I wanted to mention one more. “Pain” from the Above The Rim soundtrack, since “Pour Out A Little Liquor,” to me, is part of the Above The Rim soundtrack, too. That's another one where, sorry, I don't like this Stretch dude. He just comes into the middle and just kind of breaks the flow. He sounds like when Dave Chappelle did that skit[7] about 2Pac rapping from the grave. Yeah, like he kind of sounds like 2Pac, but like kind of scarier.
Miguel: Yeah, him and Big Syke both sound like that Chappelle skit.
Christina: The scary version of 2Pac.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: And so when he comes on, I'm always like, thrown off because I'm like, why does he sound like 2Pac but not? And I just don't like him.
Miguel: The irony of you saying that is he produced, I don't know if he did this song, but he produced "Holler If Ya' Hear Me" and a lot of stuff on Strictly For My N.I.G.G.A.Z..
Christina: Well, he could stay on the production side.
Miguel: And a lot of stuff on Me Against The World* as well, I don't need to hear him rap though.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: Just stick behind the boards and that would have been fine.
Christina: I'm good with that.
Miguel: Yes. So, let's move on to Me Against The World, which was, and we mentioned we're not going to talk about the controversies, but this was recorded—
Christina: We’re gonna have to talk a little bit about it.
Miguel: While he was facing some jail time. So, many people think this is his best album. The tone of the album was more introspective than the first two, and it's even darker than the Thug Life stuff. So, what are your thoughts on the Me Against The World album?
Christina: Well, I thought it was interesting that "Dear Mama" was the first single, but I guess that was done on purpose if it's meant to be more personal and introspective. Like, an ode to mamas. I mean, well, there's still some dark stuff in the song, but it's not about being a young Black man dealing with the ills of that.
Miguel: Right.
Christina: So yeah, that was interesting that that became the first single, and I think it was one of his, or if not, his most popular single.
Miguel: Up to that point, yes. It was "I Get Around" and then this.
Christina: Yeah. I think this album sounded more fully formed too.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: And definitely you can hear that it's more personal in the sense that like, these are things that are happening to him, not just like this general experience of being a young Black man dealing with the ills of the world. ** It's like, no, this is me, this is my life. This is my mom. Even, like I said, with "Dear Mama,” like, people with moms might—
Miguel: We all have one.
Christina: Yes, we all have one, might like the song, but this song is about his mom. It's very personal.
Miguel: Yeah, "Dear Mama" being the first single and hearing all of his previous stuff before this, it's like, okay, this is different.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: Like, he's mellow, it's a much slower cadence. It basically sounded like he's just having a conversation, almost like he's whispering it to us. And then the next single was “So Many Tears,” and it's the same thing. So, I'm like, oh, this the shit he on? He's going to be emo this album? And sad and depressed.
Christina: He gotta flick away his bangs.
Miguel: Yeah. So, this is where the paranoia that had started to creep in. This isn't the, I need to get everybody on one accord, and we need to take down the government. This is somebody who had seen some shit.
Christina: Me Against The World.
Miguel: Yeah. And it's like, I need to take care of me and my circle, and close ranks now. And that's what this album sounds like to me. It sounds like he's working through some depression. Even like, “Old School,” that's supposed to be an uptempo, here's my influences from New York hip hop, but that sounds forced too.
But yeah, that's just where he was at the time. And I've already mentioned that Dramacydal is on this album. We were calling them Dramacydal then, they're The Outlawz now. Whatever you call them, I've never liked them. I don't know why, it's not like they're terrible rappers, I just don't like them.
Christina: That's fine, you don't have to have a reason. How many times have I just said something like, I don't like this person's face?
Miguel: Exactly. I've got nothing against their faces, but I don't want to hear them.
Christina: Or sometimes, well, if we're talking about music, some people, it doesn't matter how talented they are, if I don't like the sound of your voice, I can't listen.
Miguel: Yeah. Yes. So, what are your favorite songs on this album?
Christina: I do love “So Many Tears,” even though it's very melancholy. But it is very introspective at the same time. So, even though it's a sad song, it's not like a sad song that you can't listen to and enjoy. And I think that with this sort of mellowed-down cadence, people always talk about him being a poet too, like he wrote poetry, not just rap lyrics. And I think with this slower flow, the slower cadence, it feels like poetry. And you can really see that aspect of him.
So, I like that. I like “Me Against The World.” I would say those two are my favorites. I just like "Temptations" because it's fun to be, [singing] “hey, hey, Erick Sermon.” Well, they didn't leave that part in.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: We know where it comes from. So, that makes it fun. And I do like a little light hearted moment in “Can U Get Away,” even though he's trying to lure this girl away from her abusive relationship.
Miguel: Right.
Christina: Like, what's wrong with your eye? But the part where at the beginning where they're having a conversation, he's trying to like, get her to come hang out with him, and she's like, I” can't, I can’t.” And he's like, “Please.” He just sounds like, this cute little begging, like, “Please come hang out with me.” So, it's like a nice little light hearted moment that we don't see too much of.
Miguel: Yeah, he did that on Me Against The World, too.
Christina: Okay.
Miguel: What song was it? I don't even remember, but one of the songs he said, “Please.”[8]
Christina: Yeah, this is on Me Against The World.
Miguel: Not Me Against The World, but All Eyez On Me.
Christina: Oh, okay.
Miguel: Yeah, he did it on All Eyez On Me as well.
Christina: Okay. Yeah, so, I like that. What about you?
Miguel: For me, it's the same, "Temptations", "Dear Mama". And I think “So Many Tears” is the best song that he ever did, and it's not even close, in my opinion.
Christina: It's definitely up there.
Miguel: Yeah. Shock G made the beat of his life and 2Pac put the lyrics of his life on it. And it's the best song he ever did, in my opinion.
Christina: Yeah. It's weird how it could be dark, but such an easy listen at the same time.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: It's like, I guess that's why I say melancholy instead of like depressing because it's there's like, some— a bit of a comfort in listening to it as well, where you're just like, sometimes you just need to sit in it.
Miguel: Right.
Christina: Instead of being like, when you feel bad about something and someone's like, just go for a walk, you'll feel better or something like that. It's like, no, sometimes I just got to sit in it.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: So, yeah, it's weirdly comforting.
Miguel: Some of the other songs in this era that I really like, this is also when the shit talking 2Pac starts to come out more. Not necessarily on this album because like we said, it's dramatic and melancholy, but songs like MC Breed, “Gotta Get Mine,” “Dusted ’N’ Disgusted” with E-40. “Comin’ Real Again” by MC Breed is peak shit-talking 2Pac. Like, he's not even rapping on the song. The hook is literally him just talking shit in between Breed's verses. And it's peak shit-talking 2Pac. If you haven't heard it, I suggest you check it out at some point. Yeah, “Gotta Get Mine”[9] is one of my favorite 2Pac songs ever, too.
Christina: I had to listen to “Dusted ’N’ Disgusted” just for that song title.
Miguel: Typical E-40. It's E-40, 2Pac, who else is on that song? I think Mac Mall is on it.
Christina: Okay.
Miguel: Suga T. The usual. The usual Bay Area representers. So, let's move on to possibly his biggest work. The thing that he's most well known for is post-prison revenge tour,All Eyez On Me. The anger shifted from him—
Christina: Enemies!
Miguel: Yes. The anger shifted from being mad at the system to being mad at individual people. And Death Row let him live out all his revenge fantasies, which was a good and bad thing.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: So, what did you think about All Eyez On Me?
Christina: Well, production is noticeably different.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: Because now he's got all the Death Row folks on here.
Miguel: Yes. Daz, Dr. Dre, DJ Quik. Like, the best of the best who were producing West Coast music in 1996 is on this album.
Christina: Yeah, so, this is very G-Funk West Coast rap.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: And it's funny that I call this more radio friendly hits given the subject matter.
Miguel: True.
Christina: But radio friendly in the sense that like, he's making a very popular sound. Like, this was very popular at the time, people were just eating this up. And the fact that what, wasn't “California Love” the first single too?
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: So, that's like, you just come out swinging.
Miguel: Right. Because they hit us with “California Love” and then immediately the “California Love” remix.
Christina: And then “2 of Amerikaz Most Wanted” was the second single. So, it was just like boom, boom, boom. And very much like, I'm on Death Row now.
Miguel: Right.
Christina: So, it was noticeably different. I mean, 2Pac is always still 2Pac, but production wise, it was noticeably different.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: And as you were saying, him moving away from political themes, I think maybe in a sense might have made it easier for the general public to digest because now we can just like, it’s, like I said, the subject matter, I don't know if you necessarily call it fun, per se in terms of like—
Miguel: It was.
Christina: It was…what's the word?
Miguel: There is a specific word that I'm looking for and I can't think of it right now. But basically, he's talking about partying, bitches and revenge.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: That's it.
Christina: Revenge!
Miguel Yes. And that's a lot easier for people to digest than—
Christina: The ills of the world.
Miguel: We need to come together and take down the government.
Christina: Right, right. So, it's more of like, yeah, women, gangsters, party.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: So, in a sense, it is more fun, quote unquote.
Miguel: Yeah. And like I said, it's his revenge tour because again, we have to bring it up.
Christina: Of course.
Miguel: At this point, he's not only gone to prison for a crime, he says he didn't commit. He also was shot in a robbery and his friends who he thought were his friends had no information for him. So, that kind of created this monster that we knew as 2Pac at the end of his life and that is reflected in All Eyez On Me.
Christina: And it's very like, [singing] “Somebody's watching me.”
Miguel: Yes. It’s paranoid—
Christina: It's a bit of paranoia and very like—
Miguel: Hatred.
Christina: Yeah. Like, Me Against The World times 100.
Miguel: Yes. And I'm going to be better than y'all because now I'm rich and y'all can't stop me from saying or doing anything and I'm going to destroy everyone.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: But it sounded so good, though.
Christina: It did. Like, there's a lot of jams on this one.
Miguel: Yes. Like, songs we shouldn't be enjoying and dancing to.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: It still was good.
Christina: It was. And again, production sound wise, this was a very popular sound at the time too.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: So, you can easily not really pay attention to the lyrics.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: As well. You just “ain't nothin’ but a gangsta party.”
Miguel: Right.
Christina: And that's the important part.
Miguel: Like, we shouldn't really be enjoying “How Do U Want It” as much as we do.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: Or “All About U.”
Christina: Yes. It’s terrible. Some of it is terrible.
Miguel: Yes. It's basically like if you thought “Ain’t No Fun” was bad, take a listen to “All About U.”
Christina: Right. And of course, Nate Dogg got to be there crooning away.
Miguel: He's all over the place on this album.
Christina: I do love "Ambitionz Az A Ridah.” The [mimics bassline] doon, doon, doon, doon.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: It's very catchy.
Miguel: I agree.
Christina: And there is at least one song that sounds like he did pre-Death Row, “Life Goes On.”
Miguel: It wasn't actually though.
Christina: It wasn't what?
Miguel: Pre-Death Row.
Christina: No, I said it sounds like it.
Miguel: Oh, yes.
Christina: Yeah, that was a little bit leftover, I guess. Yeah, I've never been a fan of double albums, but I guess this gave me a bigger list to choose from.
Miguel: Well, this was the first rap double album.
Christina: And it did really well, didn't it?
Miguel: It did, which he made it known in a few interviews. Like, I came out and did five million. Y'all can't tell me shit.
Christina: I'm still not a fan of double albums, but sure.
Miguel: That's because most of them are filler mostly.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: Whereas there's not much filler on this album. There's one or two that could have been left off. But for the most part, it's just heat all the way through.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: So, speaking of, what are your favorite songs on this album?
Christina: I'm going to say “Ambitionz Az A Ridah.”
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: And unfortunately, “All About U.” But I also love “It Ain't No Fun.”
Christina: It just it is what it is.
Miguel: Melodic misogyny.
Christina: Yep. And “2 Of Amerikaz Most Wanted.”
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: Yeah,“California Love” is not on my like top. Like, I do like it, But you know, also I lived in San Jose for a year, I just heard that song, this song, everywhere. And I think, I don't think I ever really recovered from that.
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: So, I don't not like the song, but it's just not, like, it's not in my top three.
Miguel: Okay. Yeah, for me, like I said, “Can't C Me,” that's probably my second favorite 2Pac song. “No More Pain” is some of DeVante's best work. What else? Obviously, “California Love.”
Christina: I like “No More Pain,” too.
Miguel: What else? Let me look at the list here.
Christina: Yeah, there was a lot to choose from in this album.
Miguel: “Only God Can Judge Me” with him and Rappin’ 4Tay. So, yeah, those are some of my favorites on this album. So, that brings us to the final album—
Christina: That we're discussing.
Miguel: Yes, that we're discussing. the final album that he worked on.
Christina: Yes.
Miguel: While he was with us. It's The Don Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory.
Christina: Which is a mouthful.
Miguel: It is. And it's only a mouthful because someone at Death Row messed it up.
Christina: Oh.
Miguel: The album is supposed to be called Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory.
Christina: Okay.
Miguel: It was supposed to say “Makaveli The Don” as 2Pac, and then the album was Killuminati: The 7 Day Theory. But somebody fucked up and was like “Makaveli!” And put “The Don” on the wrong line.
Christina: Oh, so I just call this the Makaveli album.
Miguel: Because everyone does, because who wants to say all of that?
Christina: I even when I was like, looking for it on Tidal, just to listen to it. And I was like trying to type in, I'm like, what's this called? I was like, okay, I'm just going to search for Makaveli.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: And then I kept spelling Makaveli wrong or hit the way he spelled it. I kept spelling it, that wrong, but I eventually found it.
Miguel: So, yeah, the title is a mistake, but it does represent the fact that it was recorded in three days and mixed in four.
Christina: That's crazy.
Miguel: So, that's where the title actually comes from.
Christina: Okay.
Miguel: The story goes that he just wanted to get something out.[10] He wanted to put out a mixtape and he recorded something real quick and just in the studio recording a whole bunch of stuff. But there were some producers in, like, some new Death Row producers in what they call the “wack room” and basically nobody wanted to work with them except for the people who had just gotten signed to Death Row.
Christina: So, they're like the B team.
Miguel: They weren't even the B team.
Christina: The D team.
Miguel: They were, yeah, the D team. And apparently Daz and Snoop and the Dogg Pound were locked in one side of the studio. And Pac was like, go get them niggas out the “wack room” and brought them in and they put this album together in three days.
Christina: Not bad for the producers in the “wack room.”
Miguel: Yeah. I saw an article that was like, maybe they were in the “wack room” for a reason because nobody wanted to mess with them.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: But 2Pac brought the greatness out of them. It worked.
Christina: Yeah. Because there's some songs on here.
Miguel: It is, it's a lot of good songs on the album. The only issue I had with it is it sounds unfinished. Like, at least when it first came out, I listened to it again earlier and it sounds like it's been mixed a lot better.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: But listening to it for the first time, it just sounds unfinished, at least to me. It sounded really hollow.
Christina: Was the album completed in terms of like all the mixing and stuff before he passed?
Miguel: Allegedly it was, but it wasn't supposed to come out when it did. After he passed, that's when they rushed it out.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: So, I don't know if the final mastering was done correctly. We already know that the album title was incorrect.
Christina: Yeah. So, maybe it was a bit rushed.
Miguel: Yeah. Because I had a friend who had four 15s in his trunk and a huge amp and we're listening to it. And it's like, this shit don't thump at all. So, we're like, OK, maybe they just didn't finish it and put it out as is. That's always been our theory. But like I said, it sounds a lot better listening to it now. You have any thoughts on this album?
Christina: This gave us “Jay-Z of ‘Hawaiian Sophie’ fame.”
Miguel: I love that line.
Christina: That just makes me chuckle every time. I mean, he said a whole bunch of shit, but that's the one piece that always stands out.
Miguel: “Big little, whatever, Jay-Z of ‘Hawaiian Sophie’ fame.”
Christina: So rude.
Miguel: Immaculate shit talking.
Christina: Here's a little note from Wikipedia that I did not know.
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: None of its singles charted in the Billboard Hot 100, but charted within the top 20 UK singles chart.
Miguel: That's random as hell.
Christina: They were rockin with Pac in the UK?
Miguel: I guess so.
Christina: Or Makaveli.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: I'm like, what do you mean none of the singles? Not even “To Live & Die in L.A.?” That's one of my favorite 2Pac songs.
Miguel: Yeah, I can see that one not going over too well outside of L.A., since it's a love letter to LA.
Christina: Yeah, but what about all the people listening to it in L.A.? They couldn't get it into the Hot 100?
Miguel: Apparently we didn’t
Christina: Couldn't get it to 99?
Miguel: Apparently we did not.
Christina: What about [singing] “Hail Mary?”
Miguel: None of those, apparently.
Christina: [singing] “Come with me.”
Miguel: Which is funny because all of his albums went to the top of the charts after he passed.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: But I don't know why none of the singles did, but.
Christina: Yeah, I'll have to verify it because I just saw it on Wikipedia.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: I didn't have multiple sources.
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: But yeah, well, I already said “To Live & Die in L.A.” is one of my favorite 2Pac songs, period. So, obviously, that'll be one of my favorite songs on this album. And I do enjoy all the people shouting on “Toss It Up.” You got Aaron Hall, K-Ci and Jojo, like, the kings of shouting and then Danny Boy doing his thing.
Miguel: Have you heard the original version of Toss It Up?[11]
Christina: I don't think so.
Miguel: So, basically, when Dre left Death Row, he had the beat for “No Diggity.” And that was just in the studio somewhere. So, when he left, he sold that beat to Teddy Riley. And they went on to make “No Diggity.” So, what these nignogs did is they took the beat and then put “Toss It Up” out, on that beat.
They played it on the radio for probably a week or so in L.A., I don't know if they played it anywhere else, but Power 106 definitely played it. And then they stopped playing it. And when they started playing it again, it was the version[12] that's on the Makaveli album. And I just assumed it was one of those situations where they just decided, let's remix it.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: And the remix took off and was better. No, they got a cease and desist. And was like—
Christina: This beat is not yours.
Miguel: It's not yours. Change that shit or there's going to be repercussions. So, they ended up changing the beat.
Christina: Okay.
Miguel: But if you listen to the original, which is available on YouTube and other places, it's basically “No Diggity.”
Christina: Okay. I feel like we've had this conversation before, so I probably have heard it, but I can't think of it now.
Miguel: I don't know. I can't confirm.
Christina: I also like “Me and My Girlfriend.”
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: And I do like “Hail Mary.” [singing] “La, la, la, la, la.”
Miguel: Well, you know, my beef with “Hail Mary.” The Outlawz.
Christina: As usual. I mean, we're going to sit down and take a week or so and just edit out all the things we don't like.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: In all the songs that we do like.
Miguel: One of these days, I will do it.
Christina: One of my other projects, sidebar, is I would like to remove he who will not be named off of Aaliyah's first album.
Miguel: That one’s going to be tough, though.
Christina: I know.
Miguel: That's going to be hard.
Christina: The technology we have doesn't separate the vocals.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: It puts all the vocals on one layer, but I don't know, maybe I could just shorten some stuff. Or at least like remove the obvious stuff.
Miguel: Right.
Christina: Anyways, back to Makaveli/2Pac. What are your favorite songs?
Miguel: I'm going to go with “Blasphemy” and “Against All Odds,” just because he was naming names on this record. Like Haitian Jack, Jimmy Henchman—
Christina: Everybody.
Miguel: Nas could get it, Mobb Deep, anybody who he had problems with, he called them out on this song.
Christina: Anybody and everybody.
Miguel: Yes. And ironically, him and Nas had squashed it, but he didn't get a chance to take it off the album. But they sat down and talked about it, and he told him that it was coming, so, it was like, don't take no more shots at me. This is the last one.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: But yeah, “Against All Odds” is the one that was just like, hey, if I get killed, it's because of this song. “It's the realest shit I ever wrote.” But, somebody else got to him instead.
Christina: Did “Hit ‘Em Up” come out before All Eyez On Me or before?
Miguel: No, it was in between All Eyez On Me and Makaveli.
Christina: Okay. So, then that song is just a continuation?
Miguel: Yeah, which is why I thought they were just jacking the “No Diggity” beat, Because that's what they did with “Hit ‘Em Up.” It was the remix to the “Players Anthem,” They snatched that beat too, and was like, we rapping on this now.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: So yeah, those are my two favorite songs, “Blasphemy” and “Against All Odds.”
Christina: Oh, I also have to mention the “To Live & Die In L.A.” video.[13]
Miguel: Where he’s selling oranges and cherries?
Christina: Yes. Selling oranges on the side of the road until some ladies pick him up. And then ends with a fried chicken fight outside of Roscoe's Chicken and Waffles.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: It's a whimsical day in L.A.
Miguel: It is. He's riding around the entire city, Fatburger, Roscoe's, Baldwin Hills Mall, he's everywhere. All right. So, let's wrap this up here.
Christina: Okay.
Miguel: Closing in on an hour, it's probably going to get edited down, but I think it's time to wrap it up a little bit. So, what are your thoughts, your final thoughts on the brief career of 2Pac that spanned from ’91 to ’96?
Christina: I think at the time we didn't realize like, the levels of what he did, because we were somewhat around the same age as him, he’s born in like, 1971?
Miguel: ’71, so he's five years older than me.
Christina: Okay. But like, you know, we feel like peers or whatever. So, looking back, you're like, he was so young.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: At the time, and like I said, when we were young, we think we're grown too, we don't realize how crazy this is for someone in their early 20s. Like, he was 25 when he passed. Like, that's just crazy. So, just looking back now, it's just like, I can't believe he did all that. But at the same time, since he was constantly talking about, you know, death and like, I don't know if I'm going to see another day, basically. I wonder if there was like, he always felt like I have a short amount of time. let me just do everything while I'm here.
Miguel: I can see that, and that's what most people feel about him. But the way I looked at it and it kind of goes back to what Shock G said when he was the best roadie they've ever had is, he didn't want to go back to being broke. And he was going to do whatever it is and whatever it took to take care of his mother and his sister and not be broke.
Christina: Just an urgency.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: Making sure everything's going to be okay.
Miguel: Yeah. So, I look at it more of I need to get what I can while I can, and this is the best way to do it. Because it's only five years.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: He had a full career with several eras and it was only five years.
Christina: It's just crazy.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: Yeah. And like, you know, there's a lot to say about these parasocial relationships that people have these days, but I feel like he's one of the few celebrities where I like I feel like, real sadness about his passing and like, thinking about what could have been, you know? But he did leave us a lot too, at least we have a lot from him.
Miguel: Yeah. And even though he's been gone for over 30 years, it's still relevant.
Christina: Getting all teary for some reason just thinking about it.
Miguel: But he's still relevant almost 30 years later.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: Which is crazy to think about. Like, people when we were kids, people still had this affinity for Elvis and he had been dead for like 20, 30 years.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: But Elvis had a 20 year career leading up to his passing. This happened in five years.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: We went from not knowing who he was to him being the biggest hip hop star of the time basically, in a five year span. And that's just crazy.
Christina: Well, he asked “how long will they mourn me?” And it's forever.
Miguel: Yeah, pretty much.
Christina: I mean, you have people who weren't even there at the time who are mourning him.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: So, that's pretty crazy.
Miguel: It is. All right. You got anything else you want to add?
Christina: I think it’s, I think we've said enough.
Miguel: So, as you can see, we didn't speak about any of his acting in this episode
Christina: Because then it would be three hours.
Miguel: Yes, this would have taken three hours to get through if we had talked about his posthumous music releases and the movies. So, we're doing a second episode.
Christina: Yes.
Miguel: So, we're going to talk about his movie career. Still not talking about the posthumous stuff, because I will tell you, the reason that I don't like it, is because his family put producers on these albums that didn't work with him and he's got songs with people he didn't work with. I don't need to hear a “Still Ballin’” remix with Trick Daddy[14] on it and them manipulating his vocals to mention Trick Daddy in the song or 50 Cent on a song.[15] I don't need that. Just give them to me as he recorded it, that's it.
Christina: This Makaveli album is a posthumous, I can't say that word, album.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: We'll stop there, but he did work on it.
Miguel: Yeah. Like I said, if you're going to release the songs, release them as he recorded it.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: Not these remixes with Trick Daddy.
Christina: I agree.So, this is the 2Pac 2 P-A-C episode, and then next week will be Tupac Shakur.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: The thespian. T-U-P-A-C Shakur.
Miguel: Yes. So, look out for that for the part 2 of the Tupac Shakur extravaganza.
Christina: Okay.
Miguel: All right. So, thank you again for listening to They Reminisce Over You.
We try to do this every two weeks, so, come back and join us. If you haven't heard our previous episodes, go back and listen to those. In my opinion, they're all bangers.
Christina: No skips.
Miguel: No skips. Also, we have a store so you can go and purchase some merch. We have t-shirts, hats, hoodies, all that good stuff, Nuthin’ But A Tee Thang is the store name. teethang.com is the URL. T-E-E-T-H-A-N-G .com
Christina: I'm hoping to add some stuff in the fall.
Miguel: Me too, I have some ideas. I haven't brought them to you yet, but.
Christina: I have some ideas too.
Miguel: Yeah. So, keep checking the site. See if the new shit pops up.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: We also have a monthly newsletter called Liner Notes that we put out, like I said, every month, but you can sign up at troypodcast.com/newsletter. It's free, it's funny, it's good, it's got entertaining things in it, and if you don't like it, I'll give your money back.
Christina: Your free .99 back.
Miguel: Yep. All of it.
Christina: Costs you nothing.
Miguel: Nothing.That's all we got for this episode, we'll be back with a following 2Pac episode, like I said. So, we'll be back in a couple of weeks.
Christina: Bye.
Miguel: Bye.