Episode Summary
This week we are discussing the dirty macks of R&B and Hip Hop. We get into the songs that we all know and love, “All The Things Your Man Won’t Do” by Joe, “Hey Lover” by LL Cool J, “I Can You Love You” by Mary J. Blige, “You’re The One” by SWV and there were some shocking ones that made the cut as well, we see you, Gladys Knight. We also debate who the second worst dirty mack of all time is, LL Cool J or Joe.
Transcript
Miguel: Welcome back to They Reminisce Over You, a podcast that takes a nostalgic look back at the best in music, movies, and TV from the 80s, 90s, and early 2000s. I'm Miguel.
Christina: And I'm Christina. And this week, we are discussing what we're calling dirty mackin’ anthems. So these are songs that we all know and love, but the lyrics might be a little questionable.
Miguel: Yeah, and the person singing it might have a little questionable character. Not all the time, but at the moment that they're singing it. So are you ready to get into it?
Christina: Let's do it. Before we get into the songs, why don't you tell the people what we mean when we say dirty mack.
Miguel: A dirty mack is the scum of the earth.
Christina: That's a bit harsh.
Miguel: It's true, though. It's somebody who will say and do anything to get someone to go out with them. So they will say that your significant other is cheating on you. They don't treat you right. They “cheatin’ on you, beatin’ on you,” all that stuff. They like to point out the flaws of the other person just to make themselves look better.
Christina: Yes. And the key point of the dirty mack is they are trying to get with someone who's in a relationship.
Miguel: Yes.They are trying to get someone who is already in a relationship and they got to have them.
Christina: And so they're basically just throwing the other person under the bus. That other person, they may not actually be treating them bad, but that's not the issue. They want to convince you that their current isn't good enough for them and they should go for me instead.
Miguel: That's always the go-to is, I got something better to offer than what they do. Regardless of if they're treating you good or not, they're going to say, why he treat you like that?
Christina: So no respect for this person's relationship status basically.
Miguel: At all.
Christina: All right.
Miguel: So with that said, when it comes to music, do you see much of a difference in the way that men dirty mack versus when women dirty mack?
Christina: I do think there's a bit of a difference. So both do tend to default on as what we just said, saying your current isn't treating you the way you deserve. So both do that and both promise love and or lust, mostly lust.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: Disguised as love can be implicit or explicit.
Miguel: I want to point that out too, because when men do it, that's typically what it is.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: Ican love you better. I can do this and I can do that. But you ain't said nothing about taking these kids to school. You want to do some grocery shopping on the weekend? You didn't mention anything about that.
Christina: Right. Well, I will say that at least when the men do the dirty mackin, they tend to at least promise more things than a woman does. A woman basically says, I'll love you better. Men will be like, oh, I'll give you diamonds and pearls. We'll go on vacations.
Miguel: All lies.
Christina: Jewelry.
Miguel: Lies, lies, lies.
Christina: So the men tend to promise more material things on top of love.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: And I say love in quotes.
Miguel: You know what? That's the best definition of it. Men promise material things where women are like, “I can love you better than she can” as Mary J. Blige said.
Christina: Yes. So those are the two things that I mean, the differences between the men and the women. Also, there's kind of this underlying message, too, that I feel is different between men and women. Women will say, I can love you better. And sometimes they'll portray it as like, love, and sometimes it's like a crush. So there's different levels to the love. And they will also promise sex. But it's like, I'm crushing on you, I love you, or stuff like that.
Men will say that too, but there's also, I feel like a lot of these dirty mackin songs has this underlying feeling of like, I'm going to save you. I'm going to save you from that man. I'm going to save you from yourself. I'm going to save you from making bad decisions.
Miguel: Yeah, and what I want to know is, where are they getting all of this information?
Christina: I have that in my notes somewhere. I'm like, because a lot of times, this is a woman they've just met. So how do you know so much about their relationship?
Miguel: Because they're stalkers.
Christina: Or it's like someone they see around the way. But it's not necessarily, occasionally it might actually be a friend.
Miguel: Oh, that's the worst kind of dirty mackin.
Christina: Or their best friend's wife. Yes, that is a common theme.
Miguel: Yep, it sure is.
Christina: So I have some examples of the difference between men and women. So Mary J. Blige, you always bring this up.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: “I Can Love You.” See this one, I'm not quite sure if we can call it dirty mackin. And I'll say why in a second. So she starts the song off. I mean, as you know, the chorus and stuff is “I can love you better than she can.”
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: So that's core dirty mackin. I am better than her. She's not treating you right. I could love you better.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: But she does start off the song by saying, “sitting here wondering why you don't love me the way that I love you. Baby, have no fear.” To me, I feel like she's in a relationship with this person and they might be cheating or they are cheating or she thinks they are. So she was just like, I love you more than her. Is it dirty mackin or is she trying to keep him out of the streets?
Miguel: I see what you're saying, but I don't believe it.
Christina: I just think she's like, I'm crushing on you more than you might be crushing on me.
Miguel: Exactly. I'm obviously throwing it at you. Why aren't you receptive to all this ass I'm trying to throw at you? That's the way I take it.
Christina: OK, so since I'm starting with Mary, let's go with another like female mackin. SWV, “You're The One.” This one, I just love it for its audacity. The very first line is, I know that you're someone else's guy.
Miguel: They come out of the gate, laying the groundwork.
Christina: “She doesn't treat you the way you want her to.” There you go, classic. She's just like, I don't care. Like, I want to be with you. “What your girl don't know won't hurt her.”
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: So she was like, I'll keep it quiet. So I'm not asking you to leave her. I'm not asking you to take me outside. “And if she finds out, I don't know nothing.”
Miguel: I just want to see you between the club letting out and breakfast.
Christina: So she's not promising him anything except for a good time, basically. So like I was saying, this is how women tend to do it. Now, do you have an example of a female dirty mack?
Miguel: Oh, a female dirty mack?
Christina: Since I gave two examples, because I actually have a third, but I want to give you a chance to to say something.
Miguel: Well, the biggest one, and it's like classy dirty mackin, Gladys Knight, “If I Were Your Woman,” which has been covered by several other R&B singers as well. But that's like an example of classy dirty mackin.
Christina: Yes.
Miguel: She ain't too explicit with it, but she's still letting it be known that, hey, I want to be with you.
Christina: You need to leave her and come over here.
Miguel: Yes. Come over here and get some of Miss Gladys' cooking.
Christina: Right. That was the third song that I had. And I just wanted to say the irony you mentioned covers, because I didn't know this version.
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: The first time I heard this song was it was covered by Alicia Keys.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: And if we talking about dirty mackin. Some of you may know, some of you may not know how Alicia Keys and Swizz got together.
Miguel: So this is perfect. Alicia is about that life.
Christina: So in case you don't know, I don't know, is it alleged or has it been proven that Swizz was still with his wife?
Miguel: Oh no, it’s a fact—
Christina: Okay.
Miguel: that Swizz was with Mashonda.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: And she just slid in.
Christina: So she might have told him if “I was your woman.” And he was like, you know what, let's make this a thing.
Miguel: He's easily swayed.
Christina: I actually watched a live performance of Gladys Knight, and she's just looking into the camera like she's singing to you, baby. I'm like, she's definitely convincing some mens.
Miguel: Yeah. She's definitely singing to somebody at home.
Christina: Because I was watching like, okay, I'm convinced.
Miguel: He's sitting next to his wife on the couch watching the performance.
Christina: Yep. And he's just sitting there like, I'm tired of this woman over here. Let me go over there. All right. So we talked about a few of the ladies. So I wanted to bring up “Hey Lover,” which I also think is great that he added, or whoever decided to add Boyz II Men to sing the hook, because Boyz II Men make the perfect dirty macking wingmen, because an important part of dirty macking is to portray yourself as the nice guy.
Miguel: Yes. You always got to be the good dude.
Christina: I'm the good guy.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: He's a dog. I'm the good guy.
Miguel: “He drink too much and smoke too many blunts”.
Christina: He smoke too—
Miguel: “I’m working out every day thinking about you.”
Christina: I love the “I see you at the bus stop waiting every day. Your man must think it's safe for you to travel that way.”
Miguel: Right.
Christina: “But I don't want to violate your relationship.” Yeah, you do.
Miguel: He does.
Christina: He's totally wants to.
Miguel: See, what LL is doing is something I call ethical dirty macking because at the end he says, I didn't even act on all the shit I just said. This is just a fantasy.
Christina: I just put it out there.
Miguel: And if y'all happen to break up, then I'm going to make my move. But this is a conversation he's having with himself. He's having a conversation with her in his own head. So that's ethical dirty mackin. He hasn't acted on it yet.
Christina: Yeah. And then, like I said, adding Boyz II Men is a nice touch because Boyz II Men is like, they're always seen as like, the good guys.
Miguel: Right.
Christina: They're like, the opposite of Jodeci.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: So having them crooning just kind of adds to it, gives it a little R&B flavor to the rap. A little swooning and a little wooing.
Miguel: Okay. So what are some of your favorite dirty mackin songs and why?
Christina: So Usher's “One Day You'll Be Mine” is just one of my like, ultimate favorite Usher songs period.
Miguel: Yeah. And the Isley Brothers sample is a cheat code.
Christina: It's perfect. And then it also being also used in Ice Cubes, “It Was a Good Day.” So there's layers into why this would end up just being one of my favorite songs in general and one of my favorite Usher songs. So like, to me, I never even I don't even think about it being dirty mackin or not. It's just like, I just like that song.
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: But I think the way he does it doesn't feel creepy.
Miguel: Okay. Explain.
Christina: It just sounds like he's like, you know, first time I saw you, blah, blah, blah. “One day you'll be mine” instead of like, say girl, what's your man got to do with me? Like, it doesn't feel like that.
Miguel: Right.
Christina: It doesn't feel like, how's he treating you? I could treat you better. It just feels more like he's daydreaming about someone he wants to be with.
Miguel: All right.
Christina: So it doesn't have that much of a good creep factor.
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: So another one is Ralph Tresvant’s “Sensitivity.” Same idea. And also, like, it's still a little bit dirty mackie because she's fresh out of a relationship. Because the line is like, “I know it's been hard since he he went away.” So it sounds like she just got out of a relationship and he slid right in.
Miguel: And he slid right in.
Christina: He slid right in. So he's toeing the line. It's like, she still might be a little vulnerable. But yeah, technically she's single now. But yeah, it just it sounds a little less creep factor, I guess. And, you know, all the ladies loved Ralph Tresvant, right?
Miguel: And he's also going the opposite direction when it comes to the material stuff. Because he's talking about all the stuff you don't need.
Christina: Yes.
Miguel: All you need is “a man with sensitivity.”
Christina: Yeah, “you don't need a man who will give you money.” So I'll treat you like a person.
Miguel: Exactly. “You just need a man with sensitivity.” I guess I can file that under some ethical dirty mackin.
Christina: Yeah, ethical. Like, she's not with her man anymore.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: And he's promising her nice things.
Miguel: Yes. We don't know if he's telling the truth.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: But he ain't sneaking up behind—
Christina: He isn't.
Miguel: while she's still in a relationship. Even though he could have been sweating and stalking on her this entire time. We don't know.
Christina: We don't.
Miguel: But from where the song starts, it's clean. I'll allow it.
Christina: I have an honorable mention.
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: So my honorable mention is Donell Jones. “This Luv.”
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: And I call it honorable mention because technically is dirty mackin since he's trying to woo a woman who's in a relationship. But he makes it clear that he's here for a good time and not a long time. So he's not promised her anything, but you know…
Miguel: Like, get in and get out.
Christina: Yep. “No relationships involved, strictly physical.” So that's why it's an honorable mention. He’s, he's honest. Honest, dirty mack.
Miguel: Yeah, I can say that this song could be the flip side of, what's the other one of his? You know the song.
Christina: “Where I Want To Be.”
Miguel: Yeah, that one. Where he's just telling his girl, like, look, I'm getting ready to get these streets, but I might be back.
Christina: And then he's telling the other girl, hey, this love is all you gettting—
Miguel: Exactly.
Christina: ‘cause I told my woman, I'm probably coming back.
Miguel: I might be coming back
Christina: I need to run around for a little bit and then I'm going back home.
Miguel: Yes. So he's got two sides of the same shitbag coin, basically.
Christina: What about you?
Miguel: Oh, man, there's so many to choose from.
Christina: There is.
Miguel: But Mario's “Let Me Love You.” That's a dirty mack classic. What else? Probably my favorite is Positive K's “I Got A Man.” “What's your man got to do with me?”
Christina: That's hilarious.
Miguel: “I got a man.”
Christina: “I got a man.” She was so patient.
Miguel: And by you saying she, it was actually him.
Christina: Oh, yeah, I forgot he did both voices.
Miguel: Yes, he did both voices.
Christina: I forgot about that.
Miguel: What else do I like? Pussycat Dolls, “Don't Cha,” only because of the Sir Mix-A-Lot sample. So that one has a special place in my heart. But this one is more threatening than it is like dirty mackin, I think. Because she's talking shit to the dude that she's trying to get with. And at the same time saying, you need to come over here and get with me. So those would be my favorites.
Christina: Yeah, I'm sure if Sir Mix-A-Lot didn't have “Swass,” I don't think you'd be listening to any Pussycat Dolls.
Miguel: No, not at all. If “Swass” didn't exist and there was another sample on this, I would have zero concern about this song.
Christina: All right. So that was your two.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: Are there any songs where you're like, you're doing too much?
Miguel: Honestly, we could take Bobby Womack's entire discography and put it in this section.
Christina: All right.
Miguel: But I'm not, because that would be too easy. And the obvious answer. But this time I'm going with Joe, because on “All The Things (Your Man Won't Do,)” this man said, and I'm going to have to read this one so I don't mess it up.
“Ooh, I got a Jones in my bones for you.
There ain't a damn thing that I won't do.
I'll make your body cream with my sex machine.
I won't stop until I hear your mother scream.”
Like, come on, man. That's a bridge too far now. Her mother? What her mama got to do with it? Like, can you imagine somebody's mother at home trying to fry some chicken and collard greens? And she's just, ah, because of some shit that Joe is over here doing? Come on, man, you're doing too much. Doing way too much.
Christina: Well, it's funny you say that because in my notes, I put Joe in general. I think he lays it on too thick.
Miguel: Yes, but that one has got to be the most egregious, though.
Christina: Yes.
Miguel: Hands down.
Christina: In that video. Actually, no, I can't remember which video. I looked it up and I don't think I wrote it down. One of the videos, he and his homies walking down the street and see this girl and her man fighting.[1]
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: And as soon as he walks away, Joe comes over. Oh, hey.
Miguel: The dude wasn't even 20 feet away from her yet.
Christina: He leaves his friends and starts saying, Oh, “You know, maybe I could see you tonight.”
Miguel: And then had to go back and borrow a pen from one of them. “You got a pen?”
Christina: And I'm just like, Oh, my God. Like, she lit, the girl. “Oh, it's just my ex, man.” He's been your ex for five seconds.
Miguel: Yes. He's still walking away. We can see him.
Christina: We can see like he might not even technically be your ex. You had a fight. You might just be in a fight. Because he didn't say, Don't call me no more, bitch. He just, they argued and he walked away.
Miguel: You always sweatin me or something like that, he was saying.
Christina: Yeah, I can't remember. But I don't remember hearing, We are not together anymore. They were fussin, as Mary always likes to talk about, fussin and fightin.
Miguel: Exactly.
Christina: And then he walked away. So, yeah, I put that he just lays it on too thick for me.
Miguel: So we are both consistent in putting Joe in the doing too much category, which is crazy when LL Cool J exists. But we are going to get back to that a little bit later.
Christina: I have some stuff to say, but we will get to that. Yeah, I just think because he lays it on too thick for me that that's why...I mean, I listen to it. He's got a great voice.
Miguel: Yes, he can sing.
Christina: That's why a lot of those songs like “All The Things (Your Man Won't Do,)” I don't really listen to it. It's too much for me.
Miguel: “I won't stop until I hear your mother scream.” Come on, man.
Christina: And you know what's crazy, though? OK, so he's all talking about, you know, your man's this and that, and I'm going to do all this stuff for you. Now, in his song, “If I Was Your Man,” by the song title, it sounds like he's dirty macking, “If I Was Your Man.”
But if you listen to the song or read the lyrics, that's his accent. He's trying to win her back. So all those things he promised about I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that.
Miguel: You had the chance.
Christina: He did all that because in the song he's like, okay, I gave up the streets for you. No more lies. So that's means you were doing all those things that you keep telling these girls that their man is doing.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: I wrote down a lyric.
“I know that I put you through hell.
You deserve to be with someone else.
You were the heart of me.
Can't believe you let it break.
Tell me why you won't let him go.”
Miguel: “I can't believe you let it break.” This man is a menace.
Christina: He sure is.
Miguel: I can't believe you let my heart break.
Christina: I can't remember the exact line, but he basically said, I gave up everything for you. But he did that after they broke up. So he gave up all the things that made her upset. Now he's like, I did all this for you. Why are you with this other man? It's like, because y'all broke up.
Miguel: Exactly.
Christina: She's in another relationship now.
Miguel: She has moved on.
Christina: So yeah, Joe is a menace, but I actually do like that song better than “All The Things (Your Man Won’t Do.)”
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: So Joe is definitely in the Hall of Fame.
Miguel: Well, not yet.
Christina: Oh, well, okay, he's up there.
Miguel: We will get back to that. So with that said, do you think these dirty macks mean what they say or are they just saying what they got to say just to get the woman or in some cases get the man?
Christina: I think it varies. I think some people may be saying what they got to say just to get her or him in bed, and the others are more honest, like, I got a crush on you and I don't care if you have somebody else.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: And then there are some where I do think that it is possible that they feel like, oh, this is my one true love, and they just happen to be with someone else and I want them.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: So I do think that it's all of that. It just depends on who's saying it.
Miguel: Yeah, I feel the same. I'm going to say like, 90 percent of them, they just saying shit just to get them. They don't mean anything that they're saying because they're just low level people, basically. But that 10 percent of the folks who are just out there shooting their shot, I believe in them.
Christina: I think especially the ones who are like, kind of framing it like, I'll be the shoulder to cry on.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: They're not actively telling them to leave their partner. They're just like, I know you're you're not doing well.
Miguel: Right.
Christina: I'm here for you. So I think those ones may have truer intentions, like I'm just I'm just going to wait.
Miguel: Yeah, I get what you're saying. But it's always the shoulder to cry on people that I don't trust.
Christina: It's true. That's true.
Miguel: I never trust the shoulder to cry on people. They cannot be trusted in my book. I may be wrong, people, but that's just how I feel. I grew up watching Jack Tripper on Three's Company. So that's how I feel about the shoulder to cry on.
Christina: Right.
Miguel: All right. So I think that's a good spot for us to take a break. And we'll be right back.
[Break]
Miguel: This is They Reminisce Over You. I'm Miguel.
Christina: And I'm Christina. We wanted to take a minute to make a small request of all our listeners. If you're listening to us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Goodpods, or Podchaser, leave us a 5-star rating.
You can also leave a review as well on Apple, Goodpods, and Podchaser. Ratings and reviews will help us with discoverability, and we want to get this out to as many like-minded folks as we can.
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Miguel: Make sure to follow and interact with us on social media. Also check out our website, troypodcast.com. It's where we post links to a lot of the things that we've mentioned in the show, as well as transcripts and themed playlists that supplement our episodes and more.
Christina: Thank you again for your support.
[Break ends]
Miguel: All right. So we are back. And I want to talk about some songs that we haven't gotten to. Actually, we haven't listed many songs. We just kind of been generally talking. But there are a bunch of songs that technically fit the criteria of dirty mackin. But I don't count it because they've already been some sort of previous relationship. Like, I'm trying to get back with you. And like you were mentioning with Joe, I've already done this and I want you back. So I don't think that counts. But what are your dirty mack adjacent songs, your favorite dirty mack adjacent song?
Christina: So I'm going to just mention two. The first one is Mariah Carey's “Don't Forget About Us.” Because the way she sings it, it just kind of sounds, I mean, first of all, it's Mariah Carey. I love Mariah Carey. Lambily. But Lambily from the beginning. And like the way she sings the song, it just sounds like, oh, bad timing. Like, mourning this kind of like, don't forget the good times we had and blah, blah, blah.
Okay, now second one. I just like the song because I like the song, but I like it because, or I want to bring it up because it's one of the most egregious cases because this involves kids.
Miguel: I know exactly what you're going to say because I have it on my list too.
Christina: “I Wish.” Carl Thomas. So, you know, all the other songs, you're just talking about a man or a woman.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: This one is talking about her and her family.
Miguel: Right.
Christina: Now, it's, you know, we could debate whether it's a good idea or not to stay in a relationship that isn't working for the sake of children. But when you're saying, I'm going to stay in my relationship [Singing] “for the children,” you might want to leave that alone.
Miguel: [Singing] “But what about me?”
Christina: What does this man say? [Singing] “But what about me?”
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: “She chose to stay at home so they could be a family, for the children.” And he says, “what about me?”
Miguel: Yeah, that song is ridiculous.
Christina: You want her to put your feelings over her kids?
Miguel: Yep.
Christina: Now, if she has an ain’t shit man, fine.
Miguel: He didn't say any of that.
Christina: He didn't.
Miguel: He just said he just says she's having an unhappy marriage.
Christina: Yeah.
Miguel: But here's the thing, though. I don't believe that because usually when we hear about, oh, I want to leave my wife and kids and be with you, it's coming from a man. I think she's just running that same game on Carl Thomas. Yeah, yeah, I'm going to leave him and be with you. She had no intentions of doing that. She's just looking for a good time.
Christina: But he confirmed that. He said she chose to stay at home.
Miguel: That's what I'm saying.
Christina: Oh, that she never promised.
Miguel: She doesn't even have a bad marriage.
Christina: She just wanted a little strange on the side and it was Carl.
Miguel: Get a little activity after yoga class. He believes that she's actually going to leave her husband.
Christina: But you know what? I think deep down he knows she's not because, here's another line, he said, “I love her so. She's got love for me.”
Miguel: Right.
Christina: When you say got love, that is not the same thing as saying I love you. I got love for you and I love you are two different things.
Miguel: She'd dap him up when he leave.
Christina: She definitely dapped him up.
Miguel: That's what I'm hearing.
Christina: She said, all right.
Miguel: This song is so ridiculous.
Christina: But I love the song anyway.
Miguel: It's so bad and he's so broken that the song don't even rhyme. He just got this stream of consciousness go up for three and a half minutes. There's no rhyming in this song at all.
Christina: Is this vulnerable?
Miguel: I think this is just somebody who needs some therapy and he talking it out.
Christina: And then in the video, that look of like, shock and disgust when he drove by, and saw her with this family, he's just like, ugh.
Miguel: Taking that deep, heavy sigh and just leaning back into this car seat. Oh, man.
Christina: Yeah, he's down bad.
Miguel: He is.
Christina: I love the song, though. I love the song.
Miguel: I was torn between that one and “Get It On, Tonight” by Montell Jordan.
Christina: That was egregious in a different way.
Miguel: But the simple fact that he called his girl a chicken.
Christina: [Singing] She's a chicken.
Miguel: Like, this is your girlfriend you're talking about.
Christina: Who you are missing out on her night of celebrating something.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: To go creep with the girl and call her a chicken.
Miguel: And calling her a chicken. So he's actually dirty mackin to the girl he's trying to get with, saying how his girl ain't shit. So he's selling himself.
Christina: So he's like, what is this, like reverse dirty mackin?
Miguel: Yes. This is like a, what's a good way to call it other than reverse dirty. You know what? Let's just go with reverse dirty mackin.
Christina: Until you come up with something else.
Miguel: Until I come up with something else. Yeah, that's terrible, man. [Singing] “She's a chicken.” “You are all I want, girl. She's a chicken.”
Christina: I also love that song, too. It's funny.
Miguel: Yeah, it's terrible.
Christina: So is this possible? Are there any songs where you felt like the dirty macking was actually justified?
Miguel: I have thought long and hard about this forever.
Christina: Forever?
Miguel: Forever. And I'm going to say, no, you can never justify dirty mackin. You just can't. Like I said, the dirty macks are the scum of the earth, because you're preying on people.
Christina: We didn't even get into the songs where they're dirty macking their best friends, wives and girlfriends.
Miguel: Not yet.
Christina: Oh, okay.
Miguel: I got one.
Christina: Yeah, I have to agree because it's like, even if I think sometimes I remember reading an article or something about this, like, when people cheat and when they get married, it somehow absolves the fact that they began their relationship by cheating.
Because it's like, oh, but it's love, right? But at the same time, dirty mackin is dirty mackin. I don't think it's ever really justified. I mean, I guess good for you that you ended up, I don't know, getting married and falling in love, but like, you still started off taking somebody else, like, disrespecting someone's relationship.
Miguel: You came into it under false pretenses. It wasn't pure. It was that element of dirt. Even if y'all been together for 20 years, it started off dirty.
Christina: Yeah. So I'm not sure I could say it's justified. That won't change whether I'll listen to the song or not.
Miguel: Right.
Christina: But I can't really say it's justified. Will I sing the lyrics at the top of my lungs? Yeah. But it doesn't mean I condone them. Just let the relationship end first people.
Miguel: Yeah, exactly. All right. So we've brought him up a couple of times already. And even one of our previous episodes, we talked about this man as well. Bobby Womack. He is probably, I shouldn't say probably. He is the biggest and greatest dirty mack of all time. If you people don't know about Bobby Womack and his history, look into that.
Christina: He lives what he sings about.
Miguel: Yes, he does. Him, his brother, his stepdaughter, his wife, everybody. It's a horrible situation. And with that said, we are going to debate who is the second biggest dirty mack and give the Bobby Womack award to this person, Joe versus LL Cool J. I'm going to speak on behalf of LL Cool J. And I would like for you to give us three reasons why Joe should win the Bobby Womack award.
Christina: OK. So I will concede that I think LL is better at trashing the boyfriend. But here's my three reasons I'm going with Joe.
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: Joe's better at portraying himself as the nice guy.
Miguel: Yes.
Christina: LL is always licking his lips and trying to pour chocolate on your legs and stuff like that. You know what he's about. I mean, he's not always doing that, but you kind of know what he's about.
Miguel: Right.
Christina: Whereas Joe is like, if I was your man, you know, he's just better at coming off as the nice guy.
Miguel: Okay.
Christina: And he promises more than sex.
Miguel: Yeah, he does.
Christina: Technically, LL does sometimes, too. But Joe's diamonds, pearls, vacations, all this. I'm going to listen to what you want. I'm going to give you what you need.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: So he promises a whole range of things. So third reason is his style is more romantic. I think he has an edge because he has this buttery, smooth R&B versus rap. But he's more romantic. So those are my three reasons.
Miguel: Okay, I see what you're saying. And I can admit that those are some valid reasons. But Ladies Love Cool James.
Christina: They do. Ladies love Joe, too.
Miguel: Yeah. But it's right there in the name. Ladies Love Cool James. He has so many moments that have been turned into memes, like the one of just his eyes and the sunglasses, him standing on top of the car looking creepy. “He can't stop me from having daydreams,” saying shit like that. Him and the girl sharing an ice cream cone and looking at the same time. That's just “Hey Lover.”That's just one song and video.
So in “Loungin’,” for my second point, it's the opposite of everything he said in “Hey Lover." Like, “Hey Lover,” he says, “It's a fantasy, it won't come true. We never even spoke and your man swear he love you.” In “Loungin’,” he's doing all the opposite. He rolled up to this woman's house on a bicycle.[2] He waited for her man to leave and you could see him looking over his shoulder and pulling in on a bicycle. And then he poured Hershey's chocolate, like you said—
Christina: He sure did.
Miguel: on her leg and licked it off.
Christina: Out on the street.
Miguel: In the street.
Christina: On the car. She's sitting on the car out in the street.
Miguel: Yes. People are walking by taking their kids to school and he licking Hershey's chocolate off this woman's leg. And the third reason and probably the most obvious reason, the song and video for “I’m That Type of Guy.” All of it. Because he's talking to the man and telling him what type of guy he is and how he's going to take this man's girl. “I’m that type of guy.”
Christina: He's egregious.
Miguel: “To take your girl to dinner, breakfast, lunch, dinner and breakfast.” Come on, man. And he also admitted to it. I saw a video[3] of him probably last year talking to Ebro and Rosenberg and they brought up “Hey Lover.” And he was like, it's clean mackin. He's like, there is no dirty mackin. It's all clean.
Christina: Is i?
Miguel: According to him.
Christina: I guess.
Miguel: That's why LL Cool J.
Christina: Cause it was just in his mind.
Miguel: He should be the winner of the Bobby Womack Hall of Fame, dirt bag, dirty mack of the year. So what we need y'all to do is to hit us up on Bluesky or Instagram and tell us what you think. Is it Joe or is it LL?
Christina: Or maybe they have another contender.
Miguel: Yeah, if you have somebody else you want to submit as the dirtiest dirty mack after Bobby Womack.
Christina: I'm still sticking with Joe, though.
Miguel: And I'm sticking with LL.
Christina: All right. So before we end this episode, what is the ultimate, ultimate dirty mack song to you and why?
Miguel: It's so easy. Like I said, we could do this entire thing about Bobby Womack. But the song, first of all, the title, “I Wish He Didn't Trust Me So Much,” is the ultimate dirty mack song.
Christina: That's what I picked too.
Miguel: Let me read some of the lyrics for you.
“I’m the best friend he's got.
I’d give him the shirt off my back.
He knows he can trust me with his life.
But he's trying to leave me alone with his wife.
I wish he didn't trust me so much.
I think he really trusts me too much.”
Christina: See, this is what makes it so egregious. He puts the blame on his friend.
Miguel: Yes. But wait, there's more.
"How can he be so blind?
We both got the same good taste.
He should know when he's going on business trips,
I can't help watching his woman because I'm losing my grip.
I wish he didn't trust me so much.”
Christina: Oh Lord.
Miguel: “I think he really trusts me too much.” Come on. This is the ultimate dirty mackin of all time.
Christina: It’s your fault. You know what I like.
Miguel: Exactly. We like the same shit.
Christina: You know what I like. She's what I like. Don't leave me alone with her.
Miguel: Exactly. You know how I am. I can't help myself. So yeah, I don't think there's any song, even like you said, as bad as “Marvin's Room” is. That's just some drunk talk there. This man is talking about his best friend's wife.
Christina: Well, he's talking about his best friend's wife and then putting the blame on his best friend.
Miguel: Yes. Why you keep going to work and leaving her with me?
Christina: Because it's not even like, oh, he treats her bad and I could treat her better. I know this is my friend, but he treats her bad. No, he doesn't say anything about how bad his friend is. He was just like, you know what I like. You left me alone with her.
Miguel: So why do you trust me so much? That's the entire premise of the song. Like, you know I ain't shit, why do you trust me? So yeah, it's going to be hard for somebody to top that song. The only thing that can top it is another Bobby Womack song. But I think this is the ultimate though.
Christina: Yeah, I couldn't think of anything to top that. He blamed his own friend.
Miguel: Yeah.
Christina: I don't think you could top that.
Miguel: Yeah, that's great. Like I said, just the song and knowing his personal history. He's the greatest.
Christina: He is the greatest to ever do it.
Miguel: The Muhammad Ali of dirty macks. The Michael Jordan of dirty macks. Yeah, that's all I got.
Christina: Same.
Miguel: That is all I got.
Christina: I don't have anything else to add.
Miguel: Oh, so I guess we can just wrap this up.
Christina: Yeah, let's do it.
Miguel: Wrap up our talk about the dirty macks. Thank you all again for listening to They Reminisce Over You. And we try to do this every two weeks. So you'll be getting another episode in your ear holes soon. Also, we're putting together a playlist for this episode so you can listen to all the dirty mack classics. We'll be posting the links on the website so you can check it out there. That is troypodcast.com. We'll have links to some of the videos we talked about as well.
If you would like to buy some merch, you can go to our store, teethang.com That's T-E-E-T-H-A-N-G .com. Nuthin’ but a Tee Thang is the store. Go over there and get yourself some nice merch. It's not just podcast stuff. It's a bunch of pop culture stuff. So go ahead and get yourself something nice. We also have a monthly newsletter called Liner Notes. It's 100% free. But if you would like to give us some money for it, I am not going to stop you.
Christina: I'm assuming you got some links somewhere.
Miguel: I do. But that'll be in the show notes. You can get the newsletter at troypodcast.com/newsletter. Like I said, it comes out once a month. It's what we're reading, what we're listening to, funny things we see on the Internet, all that fun stuff. So yeah, that's all I got. You got anything you want to add before we wrap this up?
Christina: No, I don't think that's it.
Miguel: All right. We'll be talking to y'all again in a couple of weeks.
Christina: Bye.